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CONLANG  November 2004, Week 1

CONLANG November 2004, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Advanced English + Babel text

From:

"Thomas R. Wier" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 2 Nov 2004 00:13:16 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (209 lines)

I will make this my last post in this debate.

From:    "Pascal A. Kramm" <[log in to unmask]>
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 01:00:26 -0600, Thomas R. Wier <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > I enter into this thread with much fear and trembling, lest it become
> > just the kind of flame war that spawned the AUXLANG list.  So, I will
> > keep my comments brief:
>
> I wouldn't call it flame war. There was just one guy who didn't bother
> to read more than the front page and then came up with completely wrong
> insults.

Actually, I made it explicit that I had read several of the pages.
It's not clear to me how a native speaker can have "wrong results"
when identifying grammaticality judgements.

> >(1) It's not clear how this is closer to the IPA (note capitalization)
>
> So what? Do you capitalize LASER as well? And RADAR? Well? I'm sure you
> don't. There's no good reason for all-caps words, they only look way ugly.

Except that we English speakers actually *pronounce* each letter
separately:  it's not */ajp@/, but /aj pi ej/. Also, you do realize,
do you not, that the same argument would apply to German capitalization
rules? Why should one not pronounce capitalizing all nouns as "way
ugly"? This is a totally arbitrary claim.

> > than any number of proposed spelling reforms of English.  E.g. <dg>
> > or <dj> as potential forms for /dZ/, but <jh> for /Z/.
>
> I chose "dg" because it already exists in current English. I then made
> "dj" for words who were initially spelled with "j", but you could also
> trash this distinction and use "dg" here as well.

So why don't you? You said you follow the IPA, but clearly you aren't.

> > Also, there
> > is not IPA symbol for /ks/, which you continue to represent as <x>.
>
> The Ipa generally has no one char representation for affricatives.

That's correct.  And [ks] is not an affricate, therefore your
comment is irrelevant.

> The x, however, is generally used by many languages for "ks", so I see no
> problems in using it.

By your own logic, you weren't interested in what other languages
do, but what the IPA does.  At least, that was your stated criterion,
since I can't read your mind.

> > (2) You seem to think a number of sounds exist in English which in
> > fact do not, at least in any of the remotely standard forms of the
> > language (e.g., [OY], onsetting [kv] except in rare loans, [], etc.)
>
> There are certainly many oy sounds in English,

You'll note that I was not referring to [oj], but to [OY], whose
second element has a front rounded element in it.  This [OY] is
most certainly absent from most all Englishes.

> q (kv) isn't just rare loan words,

False:  even most large dictionaries will not list anything other
than "kvas" (the Russian drink) and "kvetch" (the borrowing from
Yiddish).  This is true even counting other possible spelling
variants with <qu>.  Both of these words are still sensed to be
foreign.

> and it would be news that  existed in English at all. Perhaps you
> mean the  by this? It is used for the /3/ sound, like "ir" in "flirt" or
> "ea" in "learn".

By "", I was referring to the phone, the mid front rounded vowel.  You
list it as one of the possible allophones in your phonetic list, but
it exists in no dialect.  If by "/3/" you mean the open mid central
vowel, that certainly does exist in some dialects, notably British
ones.  But it is neither front, nor rounded, as your IPA transcriptions
suggest.

> > (3) You seem to think that some sounds that *do* exist are not worthy
> > of even the separate orthographic representation they already have.
> > For example, you conflate four phonemes /s/, /z/, /T/ and /D/ into
> > one grapheme <s>, which, to be frank, looks like a caricature of
> > foreign-speak in English.  Most dialects of English have at least
> > three if not four distinct back mid or low vowels:  /a/, /A/, /O/,
> > and /ow/.  Also, all dialects have a contrast between /w/ and /v/,
> > yet you conflate these as <w>, and some dialects have a phonemic
> > /w_0/ in addition which you do not represent at all, or indeed
> > seem to be aware of.
>
> There's no real good reason why you would need a distinction there. If
> you say "I sing a song", it is very clear that you didn't mean "I thing
> a thong".

False:  you apparently are unaware of the English word "thong"
[TON], which means a strip of leather or hide that is sometimes used
in clothing (especially in sexually suggestive clothing).  "To thing a
thong" would mean something like "to mess around with or fiddle with
a strip of leather used for clothing".

Please, learn the language better before making pronouncements like
this.

>  Also, as English is spoke

"Spoken".

> by a huge amount of non-native
> English speakers (more than any other language, actually), you also have
> to take them into account. Most of them don't have a "th" in their
> language, so it is difficult for them. That's the reason why I
> abandoned it.

All of which is rather beside the point. The number of native speakers
of English is vast as well, and they have to use their orthography every
day.

> > (4) Why are you imposing all sorts of oddities of the German orthography
> > onto English -- <ei> for /aj/, <> for /&/ and /e:/, and, with respect,
> > most bizarrely <eu> for /oj/?
>
> Because they're much less odd than the current English spelling.

That's not a answer -- especially since you implicitly gave orthographic
universality (in the form of the IPA) an important role in deciding
whether to use your "reform".  Besides which, the German spelling
peculiarities like <eu> for /OY/ are shared by no other language that
I know of, so they should be considered at least equally odd.

> > (5) Some of your transcriptions suggest that you ought to ask a native
> > speaker of English for help: <question> is pronounced [kwEStSn=], not
> > [kwEstS@n].  I believe most speakers of English also have [&w], not [aw],
> > yet you transcribe it with <au>. "conceived" in your Gettysburg Address
> > is /kOnsivd/, not /kOnsift/, and "lives" is [lajvz], not [lajfs].
>
> Actually it is /konsi:fd/ in my Gettysburg Address. The "v" at the end of a
> word is changed to a "f" to ease pronunciation (mostly for non-native
> speakers), and derived words keep this "f" to stay consistent.

Ah, so here you admit that you're not really reforming English
spelling as such -- you're reforming the language as a whole.
Fine.  This is CONLANG, afterall.  But just don't pretend that
you're not.

> > Some
> > of the words you use in metadescription are either not words of English,
> > such as "metapher" (correctly "metaphor" /mEt@'fOr/) or do not exist in
> > the sense you use for them, such as "superfluent" which should be
> > "superfluous".(I could go on and on with such errors of pronunciation
> > and usage, but I said I wouldn't, so I won't.)
>
> Apparently you don't have any proper arguments anymore, so you switched to
> flaming a non-native speaker for spelling mistakes now. I'm sure this makes
> you feel really great, eh?

No, you've missed the point again.  The point was that it's not
obvious that a person who is not only not a native speaker, but
ostensibly does not even speak the language very well should be
making up any kind of language reforms for any language, much
less one like English with so many speakers.

Is it not at all conceivable to you that your scheme might not
be strongly influenced by your lack of fluency in the language?

> > I'm not sure I'm understanding the intention of this "reform". If
> > you want to construct a conworld in which this reform takes place,
> > that's fine with me.  But as is, it represents more an imposition of,
> > well, the entire German language on English, which naturally fails
> > to oblige you.
>
> Well, the German orthography is certainly a hell of a lot better than
> the major disaster that is the English spelling :P

Which is entirely beside the point.  The choice is emphatically
not, nor has it ever been, between a more "English-like" spelling,
and a more "German-like" spelling.  The question was not even whether
spelling-reform is a good or bad thing -- just that the possibilities
are not coextensive with the current system or the one you've cooked
up.

> Also, no need to be afraid - I won't go an impose the whole "evil"
> German language upon you, so you can stop trembling now. No "der, die,
> das" articles for you, and no declination of verbs for person either
> or any other "evil" stuff.

Actually, I always found German grammar very straightforward and
easy relative to other languages I've studied.

> Just some perfectly reasonable spellings to save you from your
> own disaster.

So, are you now predicting that buildings will collapse, or governments
fall, because our spelling system only poorly reflects the phonological
principle?

You know, it's one thing for you to speak ex cathedra about your
own language -- even when your fellow speakers disagree with you, as
recently occurred.  What I find galling is that you think you can
act this way about a language which you self-evidently have NOT
mastered. I won't waste my time with this thread any longer.

 =========================================================================
Thomas Wier	       "I find it useful to meet my subjects personally,
Dept. of Linguistics    because our secret police don't get it right
University of Chicago   half the time." -- octogenarian Sheikh Zayed of
1010 E. 59th Street     Abu Dhabi, to a French reporter.
Chicago, IL 60637

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December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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