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AUXLANG  January 2005, Week 1

AUXLANG January 2005, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Interlingua Grammar (was: Re: Time Machine Esperanto Reform)

From:

Kjell Rehnström <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 3 Jan 2005 20:08:35 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (174 lines)

2004-12-31 kl. 08.23 skrev Steve Rice:
(...)
>
> I meant something that legitimizes something else, as Elijah's mantle
> marked Elisha as his successor. It is true that one of the major flaws
> of
> Occidental (other than its fundamental devotion to phonemic vowel
> length)
> is that it's amorphous to the point of lacking any identity. Does it
> use
> classical orthography? Yes. Does it use a more simplified, phonemic
> orthography? Yes. Does it use palatalized consonants? Yes. Does it use
> non-
> palatalized forms instead? Yes.

Do I understand you correctly to mean that there is too little
coherence in Occidental? As I see this, it does not matter if the
language has a traditional spelling or a phonetic one.

The advantage of a standard that is always used is of course that it
makes life easier for the consumer, while a choice between a
traditional and a phonetic spelling can be seen as an advantage for the
producer, like writers etc.

This is hypothetical, of course, but could it have been that the
Fundamento in Esperanto triggered Ido. With a non-fundamentoed
Esperanto there might have been Idists or probabable Idists in its
ranks, but there would not have been two distinct movements.


> Interlingua is far better defined, though it tries so hard to look
> Romance
> that the new wave of Romance-speakers will predictably drag it away
> from
> its original form into an even more Romance form.

This is very possible. It happen that I read texts in Interlingua fromm
Romance language countries and authors and they may write a more
Romance interlingua than I have learnt or that I would write, which I
find more Latin-like.

I am not sure that a very big, more Romance Interlingua would be such a
bad thing, provided it had many users.

And an Interlingua used by the peoples around tha Baltic Sea would
certainly be something else than one used preferably by Spanish, French
and Italian users, i.e. when they had cut the umbilical cord with the
IED and the Interlingua Grammar.

> Occidental lets you know
> that it uses Romance vocabulary but is not a Romance language--one of
> the
> only places where it is better defined than Interlingua. It probably
> helped
> to start with the dictionary and then add the grammar. Occidental did
> almost the opposite.

With Occidental I always have the feeling that it is polemicizing with
Esperanto and Ido. Interlingua on the other hand makes the impression
on me of a fresh start. And I am not attaching any higher value to the
expression "a fresh start", I intend it as an objective statement, no
more.


> I don't consider Interlingua unworkable. In fact, I have composed
> about as
> much in it as in Esperanto. What bothers me is that it does not
> function as
> advertised and I wish that its more devout proponents would acknowledge
> this. Instead, they keep acting as though the methodology worked and
> go on
> waving Gode's assertions about. Why can't they just say, "Okay, it
> didn't
> work the way it was supposed to, but at least it works"?
>>
>>> In the grammar, the pronouns il (= the English
>>> dummy pronoun "it") and on (= Eo oni) have no corresponding form in
>>> Spanish
>>> and should not exist;
>>
>> I thi it is the French (like in "On parle français"). Perhaps one
>> might
>> have put it in [...] as being internationnal if not a result by the
>> word formation technology. The pronoun "on" exists in all the western
>> IALs that I know of (not Volapük, perhaps).
>
> I think it occurs in Volapuk. But the point is, if the lack of a
> feature in
> English (e.g., adjectival agreement) eliminates it, or if the lack of
> three
> votes for a form invalidates it, why do these forms exist? Although
> _Interlingua Grammar_ allows one to dispense with these forms, I have
> been
> taken to task for doing so, and I admit that this puts in a bad mood
> for
> these two forms.

As far as I recall the reason for not having congruence in gender is
generalized by such forms as "grande" in Spanish which can take both
the masculine and feminine meaning.

I think the introduction to the IED contains an explanation why the
methods of IALA permit them to exlcude personal endings for the verbs.
>> Sky, heaven = celo;
>> A celestial body is a "heavenly body" in Swedish.
>>
>> Or have I missed something?
>
> The point is that there is no derivational path from ?celo to celeste
> [-
> ial]. There is no active adjectival suffix *-este, so properly
> speaking, ?
> celo and celeste are separate forms anyway, just as Sp cielo/celeste
> are
> (though these latter forms are historically connected). If the forms
> are
> not derivationally connected, then how can one justify the other? In
> the
> source languages that have both ciel[o] and celeste [-ial], they are
> effectively separate lexical items, so why not in Interlingua as well?
> One of the odd effects of this is that Interlingua in this case
> manages to
> misrepresent the international form ciel[o], distorting it to get
> "celo"--
> which is an entirely fictitious form! So far from learning
> international
> vocabulary (in this case and a few others), one learns something more
> artificial than Esperanto (which has cxielo here). To me this
> indicates a
> methodological flaw.

I'm afraid I don't follow you now.

Obviously we don't have a common word: cielo, cielle (?), heaven,
Himmel, nyebo etc. but at least in English, French and Spanish we will
find forms "celestial". So from "celestial" we can suppose that the
international form, i.e. the one freed from its language specifics
might be "celo". As far as I know there is none of the source languages
that has "*celestrial" in analogy with "terra > terrestre, alpe >
alpestre; silva > silvestre;

Or we could see it this way: If celo < celeste is non-acceptable, why
then would "nocte <  nocturne" be? or "fluvio < fluviatile"

It is often the adjectival forms that are international while the nouns
are not recognizable as they have mostly followed the evolution
according to the nromal soundlaws.
>
> 2. I suspect that it is mostly valid (probably more than 90%), but I
> still
> feel that I have to check every form--which is tricky, since, unlike
> proper
> scientists, the people at IALA did not document their precise
> methodology.

I agree with you there. There are schores of words where I would have
expected an -a even though Interlingua has -e.

An interested recercher in comparative linguistics could have much fun
studying the IED to see how many trends  there were possible to find,
if any!

I think there may be three directions.
>
> But this point aside, I still consider Interlingua a functional
> project,
> though I think it could have been more functional with only a little
> more
> effort.
By the constructors or those who afterwords tried to spread it over the
globe?

Kjell R

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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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