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CONLANG  January 2005, Week 3

CONLANG January 2005, Week 3

Subject:

Re: THEORY: Ergativity and polypersonalism

From:

Tristan McLeay <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:10:06 +1100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (174 lines)

On 20 Jan 2005, at 5.28 pm, Philip Newton wrote:

> ===============================================
>
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:14:39 -0500, Mark J. Reed <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>> We are all, and that certainly includes Christophe, well aware of the
>> traditional explanation of French grammar.  And that traditional
>> explanation is of course correct in that it describes how French
>> developed.
>>
>> His point is that if you didn't know anything about its history came
>> upon modern French as a spoken language with no writing system, there
>> is
>> absolutely nothing in the language that would lead you in the
>> direction
>> of the traditional analysis.  I'm not sure it would even be identified
>> as a Romance language.  Almost certainly not at first.
>>
>> The implication of this discrepancy is that the traditional analysis,
>> despite its correctness and utility from a historic standpoint, is
>> not necessarily useful in analyzing the modern language from a
>> linguistic standpoint.
>
> *nods*
>
> Similarly -- though not with as wide a discrepancy -- in English,
> perhaps.

Now I think about it, I'm not so sure English is wildly different---I
think most alien abducting Australians, at least, with linguists aboard
the ship would probably come to the conclusion that English is
currently undergoing a period of change to its internal structures, and
thus would try to find out where it's been to see where it's going. I
mean, initially they probably wouldn't distinguish between the -'s of
"John's going to the party" and "John's gone to the party".

On which subject, can anyone direct me to, or give me, the normal
analysis of English verbs and so forth, considering the contractions?
Without ignoring them by saying they're just spoken contractions of the
full form; I find many contracted forms grammatical when the full form
isn't, so they can't be equivalent.

One curious thing about English though is that it's often painted as a
relatively isolating language, but as I understand it (and I might be
*wildly* wrong here, which is the simplest explanation) German tends
not to use its genitive, preferring expressions including 'von', and
doesn't like its simple past tense, preferring expressions paralleling
English past perfects, whereas English enjoys the use of both... OTOH,
I've never heard anyone claiming that German's a relatively isolating
language...

BTW---if a language forms everything with clitics (like English seems
to want to), does it necessarily count as isolating or agglutinative or
something, or can it be whatever it darn well feels like based on other
aspects?

> (Already some features of Latin-derived traditional grammar
> feel unnatural when applied to English, e.g. the sanction against not
> splitting an infinitive; the rules on when to use subjective and
> objective forms of pronouns is, perhaps, a similar thing.)

I'm not so sure the English infinitive is splittable in the first
place, most of the time it seems to be a part of the verb (or element)
that came *before* and the infinitive is always unmarked. Most English
grammars have space for unmarked infinitives in the first place, so it
shouldn't be too bizarre. There's probably something I'm overlooking
though... Probably that English stress and English grammar are
incompatible :)

In any case, I'm a native speaker, so disregard it all as you will.

> =================================================
>
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:45:56 +1100, Tristan McLeay
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Actually, if anyone told you that English has a solid
>> nominative--accusative distinction in pronouns, they were lying.
>
> Though I'd say this depends on the speaker and how much they're
> influenced by a traditional grammar analysis. (Hm, I wonder whether
> this is the equivalent of a spelling pronunciation? Saying something
> because it's how you were taught, not necessarily because it's what
> sounds best.)

I wouldn't've said so. A spelling pronunciation is a mistaken
pronunciation based on the spelling: for instance, if I pronounced
'there' and 'here' to rhyme, because they're spelt the same, at least
one would be a spelling pronunciation (OTOH, if I were a Kiwi and did
that, I would just be following the normal colloquial habit, because
there the two sounds have merged into one... Similarly, I've heard
pronouncing the last syllable of 'Tuesday' with the long A sound
criticised as a spelling pronunciation, but for me it isn't; it's just
what my parents and peers have always said). Saying something because
it's how you were taught, not necessarily because it's what sounds
best, is just succumbing to the power of the establishment ;)

In any case, I would say that *English* doesn't have a solid
distinction, but on this issue (as others) it's flexible enough to
support both speakers who maintain a solid distinction, and those who
don't (like the overwhelming majority of the people I speak with). It
retains the backwards-compatibility for the time being, till people
like you start speaken proper!

>> I think also that normally when there's
>> a strong nom./acc. distinction, the pronoun-in-isolation form is the
>> nominative, whereas in English you'd use the so-called object-form
>> (-'Who would?' -'Me!').
>
> Well... I wouldn't.

It wasn't for no reason I used that example.

>  But my father subscribed to a fairly prescriptive
> view of English grammar, and this influenced the way I speak. For
> example, I try to keep my pronoun cases "correct" (and to use "whom"
> when appropriate, etc.).

Hey, I always use 'whom' when it's appropriate... (It's just that I
subscribe to the view that it's never appropriate to use it :)

(But are you a native speaker of both German and English? I spose that
explains your surname...)

> I used to think that people who spoke otherwise were "wrong" or
> speaking English "badly". I'm starting to be a bit more lenient now
> but I'm not sure I've entirely shaken off my roots in "English as she
> *should* be spoke"-ism (or that I want to: I think the notions of
> "grammar" and "grammatically correct" are useful... though my
> understanding of "grammatically correct may not mesh with someone
> else's internal grammar....).

I find it useful to downgrade your speech so far that even Satan in the
depths of hell has to look down to see it at times.


And from Rene Uittenbogaard, we received the comment:

> > whereas
> > English might say '... with John, the butcher; Jack, the tailer;
> > Sally; the greengrocer and the Prime Minister' (five people),
>
> That's brilliant! I'll start using the semicolon in Dutch for this
> purpose from now on.

Is Dutch in the habit of following the French model? I supposed most
Germanic languages would've done like English... The French way has way
too many words to be anything but unglamorously repetititive.

On 20 Jan 2005, at 8.41 pm, Steg Belsky wrote:

> On Jan 20, 2005, at 6:35 AM, Tristan McLeay wrote:
>> Not keeping up with the current state. The English orthography is
>> behind the times: it reflects pretty accurately Middle English
>> pronunciations (of particular dialects). In reality, of course, many
>> soundchanges, dialect-changes and others have occurred since then (so
>> that occur~occurrence no longer have similar stressed vowels; or the
>> standard pronunciation of 'bury' now comes from a different dialect
>> than the standard spelling).
>
> At the risk of opening up yet another YAEPT (yes, i know it's
> unnecessary... i say "RPG games" too, ya gotta problem withat? ;) )...
>
> The stressed vowel in "occur" and "occurance" in my dialect are both
> the same vowel, /@`/~/r\=/.

Oh damn, and I sat for at least two minutes trying to come up with what
I hope was a clear and unambiguous example. If you want to know what I
say, and thus how I came up with them being different, it's /2:/ and
/a.r/.

--
Tristan.

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June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
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February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
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August 2000, Week 3
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August 2000, Week 1
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
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April 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
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August 1999, Week 3
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August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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