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CONLANG  January 2005, Week 3

CONLANG January 2005, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Orthography of palatalized consonants

From:

kcasada <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:32:01 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (166 lines)

Spanish-speakers I work with NEVER use the word "tilde," and I was blanking on
it--thanks!!
This convention of doubled letters reminds me that I just learned that New
Testament Greek doubled the gamma to represent the sound English spells as
"ng"; does modern Greek still do this?
Krista

>===== Original Message From Constructed Languages List
<[log in to unmask]> =====
>On Friday, January 14, 2005, at 02:04 , kcasada wrote:
>
>> Somebody please correct me if I goof on this, but as I recall,
>> palatalized /n/
>> in medieval Spanish was represented by "nn" which is still used today in
>> some
>> formats where you can't use the modern {enye}, AKA the n with the squiggly
>> line above it!
>
>This is correct - and "squiggly line", more commonly called a tilde, was
>once merely a superscript _n_ - hence its use in Portuguese above
>nasalized vowels.
>
>And |ll| is written in Spanish for the _palatal_ lateral [L]. The
>spellings |tt|, |dd|, |ll| and |nn| or |ñ| are used in Basque to denote
>palatal plosives, lateral and nasal sounds - tho I believe |dd| is more
>commonly spelled |j|.
>
>This use of doubling of letters denoting dental/alveolar sounds in order
>to represent palatal sounds is AFAIK found only in Spanish & Basque, but
>as James' list of 'consonants in question' are dental/alveolars the same
>convention could be used.
>
>> ===== Original Message From Constructed Languages List
>> <[log in to unmask]> =====
>> Hi,
>>
>> Just getting back into conlanging after a bit of a break. I am reworking
>> emindahken's orthography so it uses no digraphs. I have a series of
>> palatalized consonants, and was thinking of using letter-plus-cedilla
>> to represent them. Is this done in any natlang or standard
>> transliteration
>> scheme? If not, what is the common way to represent palatalization with
>> one symbol? (Besides using the IPA symbol).
>>
>> The consonants in question
>> t
>> d
>> s
>> z
>> l
>> n
>
>tt, dd, ss, zz, ll, nn
>==========================================================
>
>On Friday, January 14, 2005, at 01:51 , James W wrote:
>
>>>>> Steven Williams<[log in to unmask]> 01/13/05 4:01 PM >>>
>[snip]
>>> In cases where I _need_ to disambiguate in Gi-nàin, I
>>> use dotless /i/ as a palatalization marker and dotted
>>> /i/ as the full vowel marker.
>>
>> I had been using /j/ as a marker, and wanted to get away from
>> digraphs all together. Thus my question... :)
>
>In which case you'll not like |tt|, |dd| etc.
>
>> OTOH, I like the dotless /i/ idea, since unlike /j/ it does not
>> appear in any other context. I'll consider this...
>
>Not really keen on dotless i. But if you have not ruled out digraphs, then
>I guess |tt|, |dd| etc could be considered. An idea closer to Sreven's
>perhaps is to use |y| this way as the Hungarians do: ty /c/, ny /J/, ly /j/
>  <-- /L/. But maybe have _dy_ rather than their _gy_ for [J\]. So you
>could have: ty, dy, sy, zy, ly, ny.
>
>> ==========================================
>>
>>>>> Isaac Penzev<[log in to unmask]> 01/13/05 4:26 PM >>>
>[snip]
>>> Hmm. A tough question to answer in two words. The problem is that
>>> although
>>> there are languages with palatalized consonants that use Latin script,
>>> but
>>> they do it in different ways,
>
>They do indeed - there just is not a 'common' way of doing this.
>
>>> and I don't know a natlang that would have all
>>> those 6 consonants at once.
>> Well, the language is supposed to be spoken by humans native to another
>> planet. (Lots of conculture to work out still.....) So I won't be too
>> concerned
>> if there is no ANADEWism for this. :)
>
>I'm sure there is an ANADEW   :)
>
>>> Let us see. Cedilla is used in Latvian for this purpose, but it has only
>>> l :
>>> ļ, n : ņ, k : ķ and g : ģ pairs (and I suspect they are not
palatalized
>>> but
>>> mere palatal).
>>
>> Aha! I think my consonants in question are actually 'palatal' and not
>> 'palatalized'. I'm slightly confused on the difference, although it makes
>> hazy sense.
>
>A very large number of consonants can be palatalized, including the labial
>ones. I have assumed from what you have said that you are talking about
>actual palatal consonants.
>
>> Originally, the consonants were actually 'palatalized', I
>> think, and after my revision yesterday, they have become 'palatal.'
>> OK. I like the cedilla idea.
>
>Not the original use the true cedilla. In any case, is it really a cedilla
>that is used in Latvian. I seem to remember some discussion here not so
>long ago as to what sign it was that the Romanians put under |t| and the
>Turks under |s| - whether it was a subscript comma or a cedilla.  The
>effect is much the same. I think would allow either and I'd put them under
>|t| and |d| and not under |k| or |g| in Latvian manner.
>
>[snip]
>>> Czech has three palatalized consonants, they are marked with a haczek,
>>> that
>>> is written as an apostrophe next to small t and d, as this n : ň, t : Ť/
>>> ť, d
>>> : Ď/ď. Haczek is also used there to denote alveolar sibilants, e.g. s
[s]
>>>  :
>>> š [S].
>>
>> The potential problem with the haczek/apostrophe solution would be
>> confusion with the apostrophe-as-glottal-stop that I already use.
>
>Also the haczek would not sit well over all the letters you would want to
>use.
>
>>
>>> Feel free to use anything. From my personal taste, I would prefer plain
>>> good
>>> old apostrophes after the character.
>>
>> The aforementioned apostrophe problem... :)
>>
>>> But I may be biased by phonetic
>>> transcriptions of Russian and 12:25pm here now.
>>>
>>> -- Yitzik
>>
>> I don't understand the time reference (perhaps you meant 12:25 AM?)
>
>The standard way of transcribing Russian in Roman script is to use the
>apostrophe to show palatalized consonant  :)
>
>Ray
>=======================================================
>http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
>[log in to unmask]
>=======================================================
>"If /ni/ can change into /A/, then practically anything
>can change into anything"
>          Yuen Ren Chao, 'Language and Symbolic Systems"

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March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 1
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June 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
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March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 3
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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December 2004, Week 1
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November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
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October 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 3
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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September 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 3
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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