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CONLANG  February 2005, Week 2

CONLANG February 2005, Week 2

Subject:

Re: negativity

From:

Ray Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:42:10 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (115 lines)

On Monday, February 7, 2005, at 09:01 , # 1 wrote:

> I was asking myself if a language needs a lot of levels of negativity
>
> let me explain
>
> If I beggin with the sentence
>
> "I will can want to have been eaten"
>
> It's a little weird but it's grammatical (as much I know, and if not just
> follow my toughts it will be ok)

No, it is not grammatical. The future tense of 'can ~ could' is "will be
able"
So:
Je pourrai vouloir avoir été mangé = I will be able to want to be eaten.

At least both sentences are now grammatical in the two languages, even if
the meaning is weird  :)

> each auxiliaries have a different meaning of tense, aspect, mood, or voice
>
> will = futur
> can = hypothetic

Not really - I'm not sure what you mean by 'hypothetic' , but the mood
expressed by 'can/ be able' is usually called "potential"

> want = optative (I think...)

possibly.

> have = perfective
> been = passive
>
> to make the sentence negative, each or some of the auxiliaries may be
> negative by adding "not" after it, depending of each tense, aspect, mood,
>  or
> voice you want to say negative
>
> I will not can want to have been eaten
> I will can not want to have been eaten
> I will can want not to have been eaten
> I will can want to have not been eaten
> I will can want to have been not eaten
>
>
> There are, in that situation, 5 levels of negativity

No - we can get only 4 levels. The negative of "will be able" is "will not
be able" (ne pourai pas). We cannot negate 'will' and 'be able' separately.

The grammatically acceptable negatives are:
I will not be able to want to have been eaten.
I will be able not to want to have been eaten.  ('not' is put _in front_
of the infinitive 'to want')
I will be able to want not to have been eaten.  (negates 'to have')
I will be able to want to have not been eaten.  (negates 'been')
I will be able to want to have been not eaten.  (negates 'eaten')

> For the same sentence in French "Je pourrai vouloir avoir été mangé"
>
> there are only 3 levels because the futur tense and the hypothetic aspect
> are represented by the same word

Yes, but even tho we say "will be able' in English, we can have only one
negative form for this.

> and the part "avoir été mangé" can only be
> made negative as a whole and not each part indepedently

We can negate each separately if we wish to for reasons of emphasis.

> Je ne pourrai pas vouloir avoir été mangé
> Je pourrai ne pas vouloir avoir été mangé
> Je pourrai vouloir ne pas avoir été mangé
>
> (But, the fact that, in spoken french, the "ne" is usually dropped don't
> reduce that number of level because there's a little difference in
> intonation between the two parts "Je pourrai pas vouloir")

    :)

> So I ask that question: does a language has to have a lot of levels to
> make
> a sentence negative or may it be possible to make the whole sentence
> negative?
>
> Because if we look each of the 5 negative sentences I gave, their meanings
> are very similar...

They are - the differences are subtle and relate more to placing emphasis
on different parts of the sentenced.

> So I could use a way in my conlang to make the sentence negative and not
> his
> parts, there are probably natlangs that make this..

	French   :)

> What do you think about this?

I am of course slightly biased, but I like the greater flexibility of
English in this respect   ;)

Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
[log in to unmask]
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason."      [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]

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