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CONLANG  February 2005, Week 2

CONLANG February 2005, Week 2

Subject:

Re: negativity

From:

Geoff Horswood <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 8 Feb 2005 03:57:30 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (118 lines)

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:01:45 -0500, # 1 <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I was asking myself if a language needs a lot of levels of negativity
>
>let me explain
>
>If I beggin with the sentence
>
>"I will can want to have been eaten"
>
>It's a little weird but it's grammatical (as much I know, and if not just
>follow my toughts it will be ok)

I'm really not sure about this sentence but I see what you mean.  I don't
know about French, but in my version of English (British) you can't put
both "will" and "can" together like that.  "I will possibly/probably..."
or "I may..."  It's like something my Texan wife says that drives me
nuts: "I might could have..."  Ack!

>each auxiliaries have a different meaning of tense, aspect, mood, or voice
>
>will = futur
>can = hypothetic
>want = optative (I think...)
>have = perfective
>been = passive
>
>to make the sentence negative, each or some of the auxiliaries may be
>negative by adding "not" after it, depending of each tense, aspect, mood,
or
>voice you want to say negative
>
>I will not can want to have been eaten
>I will can not want to have been eaten
>I will can want not to have been eaten
>I will can want to have not been eaten
>I will can want to have been not eaten

The last three are about identical in meaning, IMO, and the first two are
only slightly different:  the first implies that I _can_ want to have been
eaten, but *I will not* in the future (if I understand your general train
of thought correctly), the second that in the future I *cannot* want to
have been eaten, and the last three that in the future I can want to be in
a situation where *I have not been eaten*.  [negative part marked with **s]

>There are, in that situation, 5 levels of negativity

Well, three, anyway.

>For the same sentence in French "Je pourrai vouloir avoir été mangé"
>
>there are only 3 levels because the futur tense and the hypothetic aspect
>are represented by the same word and the part "avoir été mangé" can only be
>made negative as a whole and not each part indepedently
>
>Je ne pourrai pas vouloir avoir été mangé
>Je pourrai ne pas vouloir avoir été mangé
>Je pourrai vouloir ne pas avoir été mangé
>
>(But, the fact that, in spoken french, the "ne" is usually dropped don't
>reduce that number of level because there's a little difference in
>intonation between the two parts "Je pourrai pas vouloir")

See what I said about can and will in English, and the last 3 being
variants with the same meaning.

>So I ask that question: does a language has to have a lot of levels to make
>a sentence negative or may it be possible to make the whole sentence
>negative?
>
>Because if we look each of the 5 negative sentences I gave, their meanings
>are very similar...
>
>So I could use a way in my conlang to make the sentence negative and not
his
>parts, there are probably natlangs that make this..
>
>What do you think about this?

It's your conlang.  You can do what you like.  Though if you ask me, you'll
want to be able to make parts of the sentence negative rather than only the
whole sentence in some situations (Think about the nuances of meaning
conveyed by the differences, and also, what about double negatives?  "I
will probably not want not to have been eaten"- meaning that I probably
_will_ want to have been eaten.)

In Kazakh, negativity is expressed by the addition of an infix (well,
suffix on the stem before the person/tense marking):
bardym:   I went
barmadym: I did not go

Helping verbs for "can" and "want", and the perfect tense with /etu/- to be:

bara alghym keledi:        I want to be able to go
bara alghym keler edim:    I wanted to be able to go
  Negatives:
barmas alghym keler edim:  I wanted to be able to not go
bara almaghym keler edim:  I wanted to be unable to go
bara alghym kelmes edim:   I did not want to be able to go
bara alghym keler etpedim: similar to the above, but stronger.  I think
                           this is your "whole sentence negative"

barghym kele alamyn:       I can want to go
barghym kele alar edim:    I could(past) want to go
  Negatives:
barmaghym kele alar edim:  I could(past) want to not go
bargyhm kelmes alar edim:  I could(past) not want to go
barghym kele almas edim:   I couldn't(past) want to go
barghym kele alar etpedim: as above.

But:
bara almaghym kelmes edim:  I did not want to be unable to go


Hope this helps some.

Geoff

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