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CONLANG  February 2005, Week 4

CONLANG February 2005, Week 4

Subject:

Re: LUNATIC SURVEY: 2005

From:

"David J. Peterson" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:18:41 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (722 lines)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A. PROFESSION, DEMOGRAPHICS, INCLINATION:

1. Who are you, and what is the name of your invented language or
languages? Pseudonyms allowed. (Are you using one? asked "Sally Caves")
David J. Peterson.  In chronological order: (1) Megdevi (abandoned);
(2) Gweydr
(revised); (3) Sheli (revised); (4) Tan Tyls (revised); (5) Kamakawi;
(6) Zhyler;
(7) Njaama; (8) Sathir; (9) Kelenala; (10) Epiq; (11) X; (12) Kelenala
Sign Language (KNSL).

*2. Are you new to the Lunatic Survey or have you filled out a version
of this survey before?
I think I did it before.  Yes, I did.

3. Do you have a website for you language/world(s)? If so, please list
the URL address.
http://dedalvs.free.fr/

4. What is your email address? name at hostsite dot whatever.
dedalvs at gmail dot com

5. What is your age? (vague answers allowed, but it is an important
demographic)
24

6. What is your gender?
Male

  7. What is your nationality?† Where do you live now?
Mexican-American, San Diego, CA USA

8. What is your native language?
English and Spanish

9. What natural languages foreign to you have you studied or do you
speak?
In chronological order: (1) German; (2) Latin; (3) Arabic; (4) Russian;
(5) French;
(6) Middle Egyptian; (7) Hawaiian; (8) Turkish; (9) ASL; (10) Moro

10. What is your level of education? i.e., your highest degree achieved
or sought?
BA in English and a BA in Linguistics from Berkeley.  Currently
pursuing a
masters in Linguistics.

11. What is your profession? Are you a professional linguist? If so,
what also makes you a conlanger?
I'm a grad. student, which means I'm nothing.

13. If you are a student, what is your major or your area of study?
Linguistics.

14. How long have you been developing your invented language(s)?
Just this century.

15. At what age did you first start inventing a language? Can you
briefly describe your early efforts?
I was 19, I guess.  After studying Esperanto, I came up with the
"novel" idea of
inventing my own language.  I liked Arabic, so I wanted to fuse it with
Esperanto
(in an a prior way, not a posteriori) to create an Arabic-like language
that was totally
regular.  I intended it to be a stealthlang.  That never came to be.

  16. What drew you to start inventing a language and/or constructed
world? What was the inspiration?
Linguistics, really.  Linguistics, Esperanto, and a general love of
language.

  17. Did you start inventing before you had heard of the list or after?
Before you had heard of Esperanto or Tolkien? (I name the two most
common inspirations)
Before I heard of this list.  I didn't know that other people besides
Zamenhof had
ever undertaken such a feat.  But, no, I was told of Esperanto in high
school, so I
didn't come upon language creation organically, so to speak.

18. Tolkien calls it a "shy art" and a "secret vice"; but that was
before the Internet. How secret do you keep it from others outside this
list for much the same reasons?
For very real reasons, it's best to keep language creation under your
hat if you're
in the field of linguistics.  There are many who would look down on
you, and also
many who would consider someone who created languages to be unhireable.
  So
there are practical reasons for keeping it from some.  As for others,
it's been my
experience that no one who doesn't do it is really interested.  Why
bother?

19. Yaguello has called it "pathological," influenced, unfortunately,
by a lot of psychiatric writings such as _Le Schizo et la langue_. To
what extent have you encountered such reactions by outsiders you had
taken into your confidence?
Only from people like John McWhorter.  Hey, wasn't his name mentioned
in a
message on this list recently...?  Something about tone not being found
in creoles?
Not true, of course, and just how many languages, percentage-wise, have
tone...?

*20. Do you consider it nerdy to be doing this? This is a term that
gets tossed around a lot. Or actually sophisticated? Do you need to get
a life, or is this your life? What is a life?
Creating language?  No.  Creating concultures?  Yes.  This is getting
close to being
my life, unfortunately.  A life involves keeping physically healthy,
being satisfied
with one's own endeavors, not harming anyone else, and maintaining
relationships.
I find conlanging to be at odds with the first.

21. There has been a connection noted between linguistic and musical
ability. Are you musically inclined? Do you sing and/or play a musical
instrument? Do you compose music?
Sure.  But, my whole family is musically inclined, so it could be
incidental.

22. There has been a connection noted between linguistic and
mathematical ability. Are you mathematically inclined or inclined
towards computing in any way?
Not in the least.

23. What other passions do you pursue that give you creative pleasure?
(painting, drawing, sculpting, calligraphy, model-building, novel or
story-writing, role-playing games, map-making, book-making, poetry,
web-designing, star-gazing or other?)
I've written fiction for as long as I remember.  I wrote a few novels,
a whole slew
of traditional short stories, and, more recently, very short short
stories (sudden
fiction...?).  I've also "drawn" my whole life, and I love doing art
with markers (I
never graduated to paints, and never will).  For the past four years,
I've also been
writing a children's book for my little sister for each birthday.
(I.e., four books:
One when she was born, and one for every birthday since.  She's three.)

†

B. FEATURES OF YOUR INVENTION

1. Pick the best term for the invented language you are currently
invested in: auxlang, artlang, engelang, loglang, lostlang,
philosophical language, or "other." etc.
CSL (constructed sign language).  Though another is a traditional
artlang.  I'll call
the first A and the second B.

  2. Is your conlang a priori (devised from scratch) or a posteriori
(based on an existing natural language or drawing from a language class
such as Semitic)?  Both A and B
are a priori (though A is drawn from a set of a priori words).

4. Do you have a script for your conlang? What is it called? Could you
provide me at a later date with a sample of it?† Is it on Langmaker's
"neography" site?
A has no script; just a romanization system.  B has a script, but it's
still being developed.
All my other languages have scripts, though.  It's one of my favorite
things to do.  Most
are on Langmaker.  And, yes, you can have samples.

5. Briefly describe the outlines of your invented language (syntactical
structure--VO, OV, etc.; class or type--analytic, synthetic,
agglutinating, incorporative, accusative, ergative, active, trigger,
other, combinations, etc.), noting what you have done with it that is
innovative in your opinion.
Much of the typical typology doesn't apply to A, since it's a signed
language.  The verbs or
incorporating, where certain classes incorporate subjects, others
objects, and some
subjects and indirect objects.  I guess it would be VO, though.
Because of how
incorporation works, the language has some ergative structures.  The
other language, B, is
VO, agglutinating, incorporating, and templatic, like Arabic.

7. How extensive would you say your invented language is, now? How big
the vocabulary? Do you provide a vocabulary list or taxonomy on your
website if you have one?
Both are just starting out.  A will grow much faster, since it's built
as a speed creole.  It
has a list of 377 basic signs.  That list is on the website, but it's
not finished yet (takes
awhile).  As for the other, it's not up on the web yet.  It's young yet.

8. How do you build vocabulary? Some people pull words out of the air;
others build up a base of root words and affixes. Many do both.
You have to do both, if you're creating a natural language.

3. Does a constructed world accompany your invention(s)? What is it
called?
Earth.  (Hey, what happened to question 6?)

  *9. Has your language and conworld ever served in a role-playing game
or a world shared by other conlangers?
Well, these are just starting out.  Maybe these questions would be
better worded as
"Have you ever had a language that..."  Taking that approach, Kelenala
is I think
still being used in a role-playing game in Poland.  These guys e-mailed
me and said
they wanted to use it, so I let them have at it.

*10. Briefly describe your conculture (is it within the bounds of this
world? on another world, etc.?)
NA

*11. Are the beings who speak your invented language human or alien? If
alien, what features have you given the language to make it alien or
how have you restricted or expanded its phonology? vocabulary?
NA

12. What do you write in it? Poems? chants? lullabyes? prayers?
history? stories? recipes? Are any of these exhibited on your website?
I'm working on some stuff in some languages.  They will be on my site;
they're not yet.

13. Can you speak your conlang? Are you fluent in it? Is this a goal
for you? Have you tried to teach it to an intimate? a companion animal?
:)
You know, I've never been good at speaking languages, period.  Conlangs
are no
exception.  I'm better at signing ASL than speaking other languages
which I've studied
longer, though, so maybe I'll get fluent with my CSL.  I'm good at
writing and reading,
though, in a fair number.  After the debacle of my first language, I've
never even
dreamt of teaching any of my languages to another living soul.

14. Have you made any soundbytes of your language? Could you provide me
at a later date with a sample of them?
One of my pages has soundbytes of me giving examples of the six tones
the language
uses.  Now that I know how to make soundbytes, though, I may do some
more, and
you can have a sample.

*15. If you use Roman script, how recognizably "phonetic" is your
writing system? In other words, do you use unconventional letters or
letter combinations to represent sounds? Why or why not? Iím thinking,
of course, of Etabnannery, for those who remember it.
Though each of my languages has a unique script, they also have a
romanization
system for the site.  I try to create romanization systems that are as
phonetic as
possible, while still being pleasing to the eye.  It's an art form, in
the way that
writing a grant proposal is an art form.

16. How many of you sing in your language and have invented songs for
that purpose?
I did once.  But then I actually changed the vocal melody, and the
meter no longer
worked.  I need to rework that song...

*17. How many of you, for entertainment or any other reason, resort to
gibberish? (This is in response to Adrian Morganís question in
December). Does it give you ideas for conlanging? (Have you ever fooled
anyone?) How many of you have sung gibberish?
Uhh...occasionally I sing along to Sigur Ros...?

*18. What on-line games do you play? (or devise?) Translations,
Babel-text, Relays, etc.
Oh, Relays and translating the Babel Text are games?  I guess those,
then, and no
more.

19. Which do you prefer doing: devising phonology? script? structure?
building vocabulary?
Phonology is almost a necessary evil, though I do enjoy it.  Devising
the script is
the best part of any language.  From there, derivational and
inflectional morphology.
Then vocabulary building.  Last and least, sentence structure/syntax.

20. Do you start and stop several different conlangs, or do you tend to
stick with one and develop it over years?
I've only ever stopped one language, and all the others are ongoing.
It's the same with
me and books.  I'm currently reading 9.  A couple I've been reading
since--well, one
since high school.  I've started and finished many books since then.
Nevertheless, I
haven't given up on that one, and I will one day finish it; it's still
fresh in my mind.
I conlang the same way.

21. What do you think makes a "complete" conlang, if a conlang can
attain completion? What are your goals for completion? When do you grow
"tired" of your conlang, or donít you?
I don't grow tired of any of my conlangs.  A conlang is complete when
you've stopped
building structure, and when you have a clear idea of how a given body
of text *can* be
translated.  You may need to create tons of vocab, but you know exactly
how it would
work, and exactly what it would look like.  That's a complete conlang.
Vocabulary
building will just take time, so one shouldn't judged based on that.
Plus, rushed
vocabulary is careless.

*22. Which came first: the conlang or the conworld?
Well, for me the conlang.  When I created my first language, I didn't
even fathom
that someone would create a language that went with an imaginary world.
  Never
even occurred to me.
†

C. PHILOSOPHY AND AESTHETIC:

1. What aesthetic features do you value in inventing language? Be
specific as to phonology, structure, script, etc.
Deadly realistic phonology.  I think what I like about language the
most (natural
or invented) is the conspiratorial nature.  Certain phonemes in a
language can be
used in certain environments and change in certain ways because of
certain affixes
the language has.  The morphology and the phonology conspire to produce
something very speakable.  And, of course, the syntax and morphology
conspire
to create a language that looks at the world in a particular way.  All
of it should
tie together.  A concrete and very small example is from English.  In
English, plurals
are marked with an /s/, as are third person singular subjects.  Given
the verbal
agreement of morphology, you get, for example, "The dog runs" vs. "The
dogs
run".  It's like the language conspired so that, no matter what the
third person
subject is, you get one and *exactly* one /s/ sound in the sentence in
the present,
no matter what.  That is awesome.  Blows me away.  That's the
conspiratorial
nature of language that I value.

2. What commonly applied aesthetics have you ever tried to avoid in
your invention? This has been an oft debated question, especially when
it comes to Tolkien.
Sound symbolism.  Sound symbolism has a place in every language, but
*not* English or Romance sound symbolism.  Each language should have
its own sound symbolism, and I work to create a different kind of sound
symbolism for each language, so that each language has a set of "nice-
sounding" sounds, and a set of "harsh-sounding" sounds, and they're
always different, and unique to each language.

  3. Is difficulty or obscurity a goal in inventing a language?
Can be.  I like to look at languages that are trying to be obscure.
I've
never tried one, but I think the idea is neat.

4. Is efficiency a goal in inventing a language? This question neednít
cancel out the previous one.
Can be.  This interests me less than obscurity, though.  Far less.

5. How natural do you wish to make it, or is that a concern? Or rather,
how unnatural do you wish to make it?
I try to make natural languages.

6. Can conlanging be sexy? sensual? obsessing? how does it†heal or
harm†you?
Lack of exercise harms a body.  Conlanging, for me, involves sitting
and staring
at a computer screen, and killing my wrists on my keyboard.  Can
conlanging
be sexy?  Sure.  Of course, real-life sexiness can fix that lack of
exercise, I've
found...

*7. How many of you have developed a rich vocabulary of obscenities?
Rich?  Nah.

  8. Can it be mystical? To what extent does conlanging fulfill a
spiritual purpose for you? Or a magical one? Did it ever start out that
way?
Not with me.

  9. How many of you have developed a rich vocabulary of magical,
religious, or incantatory terms?
Not I.  A "magic" language, though, does intrigue me.  Especially
because of the
concept of "singing" something into existence as presented in the
Kalevala.

*10. How many of you have striven to invent words that express novel
ideas, or are not expressed in any natural language that you know?
For natural languages, I try to do as much as seems right.  In my first
language, I tried
to express every concept.  Thus, there were basic level color terms not
only for "blue",
"white", etc., but also "black-and-white", "tree-colored",
"bruise-colored"...

  11. Name a few of the words in your language(s) that you are most
pleased with and are the most original to you.
-From Zhyler: /pasakpanal/  This describes a particular type of dinner
where everyone
gets together and brings not prepared foods, but whatever (edible)
foods they have left
over that they aren't going to use.  Some, someone will bring some
broccoli they can't
eat, others maybe some mushrooms that are going brown, maybe some
bread...  The
more the better.  When everyone gets together, they create a meal using
all the
ingredients brought together.  The host is responsible for coordinating
the effort.  This
is derived from the Zhyler word "to gather".  I thought of it one day
as I was throwing
away some cucumbers that had mold on them that I'd *really* intended to
eat...
-From Kamakawi: /mawaliwa/  This is describes a person who pretends to
drown to
attract attention from a love interest.  It need not necessarily apply
to pretending to
drown specifically.

12. How do you sense that a word is "right" for its meaning? How much
do you labor at fitting a sound to its sense? Or donít you care?
Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  Sometimes I create a phonetic form
for a word and
then give that form to a different word, just so I don't get trapped
with, say, too many
words beginning with [Z].

*13. Do you ever rely on a software program to build vocabulary? Do
those who donít think thatís cheating? :)
Josh Brandt-Young created a software program that models sound change,
and also
builds words based on specifications (e.g., what are the C's?  What are
the possible
forms of a word?).  I find this very useful when I have more phonemes
than I'm
used to, and some of them I'm unfamiliar with.  This is because I tend
to favor the
ones I'm familiar with, and so the vocabulary is unbalanced and
unnatural.  Is it
cheating?  You bet.

*14. Is conlang a hobby, a craft, or an art in your mind? This has been
hotly debated, so the question is not as weird as it seems. Can
conlanging be considered an art? Why or why not?
Yes, it's an art: It's a form of expression.  It's creation.  The way
that model trains are
not.  Model trains, model airplanes, paint by numbers, etc., all come
with instructions.
Fiction, painting, poetry, dance, conlanging: These come with no
instructions.  Thus, I
*do* make a distinction between, say, for dollhouse hobbyists, those
who buy a dollhouse
and fill it with what they tell you to fill it, and those who build
their own.  I know a
couple of people who work with dollhouses and who create and upholster
their own
furniture, make their own plants, and their own fixtures.  That's art.
Buying stuff
from a store and putting it in a prefab house is not.

*15. If it is, who do you think are its consumers?
Does art need customers?  The carwash place down the street from me has
lots of
customers--myself included.  Is that art?  Am I a patron of the
carwashing art?
Seriously, though, I think there's a market for grammars, dictionaries,
TY manuals,
and literature in conlangs.  I think there is.  We'll see.

  *16. This question is directed as well at any auxlangers on the list.
Is it an art, a political tool, both? And who do you think could be its
consumers?
NA

*17. There has been some exciting talk recently (and over the years)
about what a conlang is or is not. If you could pick a metaphor or
write a descriptive phrase defining "conlang," what would that be?
Dietetically engineered food.

*18. Why or why not would you eschew the metaphors "miniature" or
"model"?
Because they don't apply.  It's like saying that sculpting is like God
(the sculptor)
creating humans.  The metaphor makes sense, in an artistic way, but the
intent
of each is entirely different.

  *19. Is a conlang more like a glimpse of something lifesize? (Irinaís
suggestion in 2001)
I think the problem with this is the assumption that language is the
property of a
community, and not of a human.  Each human being that speaks a language
*has*
that language, themselves.  The language they speak is different from
everyone
else.  It changes based on interaction.  If there were no interaction,
though, it wouldn't
change.  A conlang is a language without interaction.  If the grammar
of a natural
language is finite, then a conlang can be lifesize.

*20. There has been some invigorating discussion lately about what a
conlang can do that most natural languages donít (such as produce OSV
structure, or eradicate verbs) What experiments have you made with your
artlang(s) along these lines?†
I've tried a purely pictorial conlang.  It's coming along.  I haven't
really pushed the
envelope, though.  Some day.

  *21† What do you think distinguishes a conlang from a natural
language, if you think so at all?† What would it take for a linguist to
be fooled into thinking a conlang was a natural language?
Not much.  Now, a human being, that's a different matter.  Oh, wait, I
have another
linguist joke.  How does a linguist know that language x is natural,
and not created?
Because Snodgrass (1978) says it is.  How does he know?  Because
Weltmeier (1971)
says it is.  How does he know...?

*22. How much do you study other languages in order to discover what is
natural in language? Or to discover how you can stretch the boundaries
of language to make it do things that are unnatural?
Constantly.

*23. Can such a language function?
The human brain can do a *lot*.  A WHOLE lot.  I think one would be
hard-pressed to
create a language that the human brain couldn't handle.  Well, maybe
binary.

*24. There has been quite a bit of fascinating debate about the
relevance of conlanging to linguistic study. We all know that
linguistics can aid conlangers, but in what ways can conlangers aid
linguists? Or does it matter?
Conlangers can aid linguists, but I don't think they should.

†

D. THE LISTSERV

1. How did you first hear of this list?
Stumbled on Pablo David Flores's website, which pointed me to Mark
Rosenfeldt's
website, and that's where I heard about it.

2. How long have you been on this listserv or on other related
listservs? Continuously? Infrequently? Off and on? More off than on and
vice versa?
Since 2000 pretty regularly.

*3. What is the appeal of being on a listserv and contributing to it?
Do you think you†contribute moderately or excessively, or not enough?
Do you tend to lurk ?
My knowledge has grown by leaps and bounds being on this listserv.
Everyone
has something to contribute, and the more everyone contributes, the
more we
learn.  I have contributed excessively, but I'm supposed to be lurking
now (or
not even on).

*4. For those of you who remember its inception, how has it changed
over the past decade?
NA

*5. How helpful has the list been in developing your language? In
learning linguistic information?
I could never have done anything without this list, at all.

6. What books have you consulted? On your own, or because you heard of
them on the list?
Describing Morphosyntax, because of the list.  Comrie's book on
typology, because it
was on sale.  Language grammars, because I wanted to.

*7. Do you peruse the websites of other conlangers?
All the time.

  *8. Do you sense that people on this list are interested in your
conlang and give you feedback on it?
Eh.

  9. Have you ever set out to learn at least a little bit of someoneís
conlang, if only a word or two, or a phrase?
Oh yes.

*10. Do you peruse Jeffrey Henningís Langmaker.com site?
I volunteer for it.

*11. What on-line techniques do you use to showcase your conlang, such
as Audacity or other sound programs, Dreamweaver, Illustrator,
Fontography, and so forth? Did you hear of them on the list?
I use TypeTool, which I didn't hear about on the list, because it's for
Mac.  Audacity I've
used, but I found it googling.

12. Have you ever tried to introduce a friend to the list?
Yes.

  13. Do you know of anyone who does this kind of thing but who has
never heard of the list?
No, actually.

*14. What other lists do you frequent related to conlanging?
None.

*15. What do you think will be the future of the list? I see it giving
birth to alternate lists like Conworld, Lostlanguages, Romlang, etc.
What improves the present list and its helpfulness or entertainment
value?
I hope the list will stick around, but an influx of people may kill it.
  We'll see.  People
sticking around helps the list.

  *16. What Internet technology would you most like to see developed
that would aid you in showcasing your language(s)?
A better glossing tool.  Dynamic IPA, maybe.  Just a way to make it so
that we could
type in a font we invented and everyone could see it.  THAT would
warrant a Nobel
Peace Prize.

*17. What lists like conlang exist in other cultures and languages that
you know of?
NA

*18. There has been some terrific talk about CONLANG as a community.
And yet so many of us seem to want the world to know of it and respect
it. Is the CONLANG community enough?
Uhhh...respect the CONLANG listserv?  Attention would be nice.

*19. In my 2000 on-line article
(http://journal.media-culture.org.au/0003/languages.php) I suggested
that the Internet "may provide a site that, with the impetus of
competition and showmanship, encourages inutile and obsessive
activity"; I was quoting Jeff Salamonís article "Revenge of the
Fanboys." Village Voice 13 Sep., 1994. He wrote that over ten years
ago. Do outsiders still entertain such notions, do you think, about
listservs like this one? Do you? To what extent has the list increased
obsessive development in you? Would you be inventing as furiously as
you are without the list or knowledge of other inventors?
No.  The internet has really changed lives.  Nowhere is this more
evident than in the
Deaf community.

20. If asked whether it is not better to turn your linguistic talents
to the learning and speaking of natural languages (a common response
Iíve met with and aimed at criticizing introversion or solipsism), how
would you answer?
Rejoinder: "How many languages do *you* speak?  I bet I speak more."

*21. In Elizabethan times there were the inkhorn neologisms. There were
ciphers and pasigraphies. Today there is conlanging. Do you think the
contemporary world is more open to language innovation or more closed?
Closed.  Anything that was creative and done by an "intellectual" way
back when was
accepted and taken seriously.  People have a bias for not taking things
seriously now,
though.  (Boy is *that* a rash generalization...)

*22. What would Tolkien have done with such a community? He writes in
"A Secret Vice" that language inventors "hardly ever show their works
to one another, so none of them know who are the geniuses at the game,
or who are the splendid Ďprimitivesí." He suggests that perhaps in a
later time language invention will become respectable, and such things
can be exhibited. Have we reached that time?
Yes, and no.  Depends on the word "exhibited".  Right now, our conlangs
are exhibited,
but the audience is us.  Others *can* view our stuff on the web, but
they're not the target
audience.  This has to change before conlanging can become
"respectable".

*23. Is there a danger that over-exposure can make conlanging "banal"?
To what extent is it exciting because it is a) considered disreputable,
"corny" or "mad," or b) largely unknown to the world? Does it have a
fizzle-out date?† In other words, is it just a fad, or is it a natural
human inclination that will stand the test of time?
Could there have been a Virginia Woolf if no one read fiction?  If they
thought fiction
was silly or pathological (e.g., "Who would write something that never
happened?!").
Maybe.  Would their work survive?  Certainly not.  How many great
novelists do you
think the Piraha community will produce?  The pros outweigh the cons
for exposure
(overexposure entails that the cons outweigh the pros).  I don't find
things exciting
simply because they're unknown or disreputable.  Conlanging will have a
fizzle-out
date if there comes a point when all humans can automatically know all
languages,
and language creation is as simple as microwaving a bag of popcorn.
But, of course,
I'm sure some said that in the past about painting, by imagining what
computers
can do now.  So maybe not.

Finally, may I have your permission to use any of this material of
yours for my academic work on conlanging? First name? last name?
pseudonym? anonymous?
Yes, you can use all of this.

Man, that took longer than I thought!  I was supposed to be asleep an
hour and a
half ago!

-David

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