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AUXLANG  March 2005, Week 1

AUXLANG March 2005, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Adj+Noun and adj-agreement (was: Least common denominator)

From:

Todd Moody <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Todd Moody <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 5 Mar 2005 14:28:19 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (81 lines)

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:16 am, Donald J. HARLOW wrote:
> Je 06.24 ptm 2005.03.04, Todd MOODY skribis
>> That is, I think the Esperanto
>> "option" to permit elision of nouns, allowing adjectives to stand as
>> surrogates, could be confusing to some learners.
>
> I, at least, never found it so.

Nor I, but this is a good example of how elusive "simplicity" can be.
To someone not used to dealing articles, I imagine it is simpler to
learn that they *always* are bound to nouns or noun phrases.

> But let's look at three solutions:
>
> (1) Agreement (Esperanto).
> (2) Special form of the article when noun is absent (Ido).
> (3) Dummy noun (your theoretical proposal).

Rule 2, to my mind, is a limited and more complicated variant of rule
1.  It treats the article as a kind of modifier that agrees with the
noun *sometimes*.  There is some justification for treating the article
as a modifier, since it is similar in function to the demonstrative
adjective, but no justification for using different rules to inflect
it.

Indeed, if you think of the article as a kind of modifier, and the
Esperanto article is invariant, that could count as another reason for
making all adjectives invariant, for consistency.

> All three of these address, with what is -- to my mind, anyway -- more
> or
> less equal facility, the question of the elided noun.

Agreed.

> (1) What do we do when we use two different adjectives, with two
> different
> numbers, to refer to the same noun? ("La vendejo havas bluajn kaj
> rugxan
> auxtojn" -- evidente, la rugxaj auxtombiloj estas popularaj)

I don't think this sort of case should drive the more general rule.
It'd be easy enough to say this, when needed, with invariant
adjectives.  "La vendejo havas blua auxtojn kaj rugxa ero" (using my
borrowed dummy noun).

> (2) How do you maintain the same degree of redundancy with regard to
> number
> that you have in many other languages? ("The vegetable is overcooked"
> vs
> "The vegetables are overcooked" -- two signs of the plural here, for
> noisy
> conditions; also in Esperanto "La legomo estas trokuirita" vs. "La
> legomoj
> estas trokuiritaj", two signs, vs. one for Ido, for example).

Well, it's an open question how much redundancy is needed.  And it's an
advantage of the Esperanto plural that it's quite audible.  I don't
think "Mi havas legomojn trokuirita" is so easy to miss that it requires
plural adjectives throughout the language.  If this sort of clarity
issue is a problem anywhere in Esperanto, it's with the pronouns that
all rhyme and unconjugated verbs.

> I suspect that workarounds could be developed that would enable
> solutions
> (2) and (3) to resolve these problems as well, but they would involve
> the
> addition of new syntactic rules -- which, in my experience, are more
> difficult to teach explicitly than morphemes -- while agreement solves
> both
> without adding extra work in learning. So overall I think agreement has
> the
> edge here.

The dummy noun solution is morphemic, not syntactic.  Honestly, if
adjectives were invariant, just as the article is, I don't think anyone
would complain that things would be simpler if there were noun-adjective
agreement throughout the language.

Todd Moody

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