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AUXLANG  March 2005, Week 1

AUXLANG March 2005, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Hornets

From:

Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:43:02 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (222 lines)

Mostly to Jeff B, but a comment for Don H at the end.

Hi Jeff,
   Last night, my wife reminded me that my neighbor's
last name is "Blakely" with no "s" in the middle.  If
so, then it's pretty funny that we quite often call
him not only "Jeff" behind his back, but also
"Blakeslee."   :-)

> > but even without a country fall back on,
> > with other languages, you can just say "that
> > is how it is."
>
> I think this latter statement is true of Interlingua
> as well. If you complain that comprar isn't
> "international", the answer might be "well,
> comprar's what we use, no one says emer." And
> there is a resistance to reformers, people who
> want to monkey around with the way things are
> or have become.

... and I've heard this argument before.  Ingvar wrote
a very interesting article about Interlingua in which
he directly names several "reformers" of Interlingua
and cites tradition (although I wouldn't swear that
he use that word) as the reason that the aquelistas
and egoistas are wrong.  While I do find myself more
inclinded toward this Ingvarical respect for
tradition, I see two basic problems with it when it
comes to Interlingua.

First, it contradicts the basic message of
Interlinguan propaganda. (I am using that word in its
most neutral sense.)  That is, that the main advantage
of Interlingua is that it can be read without previous
study.  If the goal of my writing is to produce
something which can be read by people who have never
studied Interlingua, then it doesn't matter which word
the Interlinguans use according to their tradition.
What matters is what word would be understood.

Second, it contradicts the intention of Gode - the
father of Interlingua.  Gode wrote at length about
such arguments are contrary to the basic conception
of Interlingua as the common language of "Romania."
(See note about Don's comment on this term

Sure, it's possible to come out and say "I speak
Interlingua the way the Interlinguans do because I
am interested in talking to Interlinguans and I don't
give a rip what Gode says, and neither do I state
that the fundamental purpose of the language is to
talk to non-Interlinguans".  In fact, several have
done this.  I'd be more comfortable with Interlingua
if more did.

> Again I don't think the confusion, the suggested
> improvements, or even the hunt for new words,
> really happens a lot. It really is just a few
> folks on the Internet, as Paul was saying.

At the risk of biting the hand of some of the fine
(virtual) hospitality given to me by some American
Interlinguans, I will say this.  At this point, "the
Internet" is all I have.  The bulk of the non-internet
Interlingua material that I have (beyond Vilborg and
the IED) are copies of a publication made by one whom
Ingvar calls a "reformer."  It is full of the stuff
which I had in mind when I used the word "confusing."
Since writing my note to Paul, I went "nomail" again
on the one list we discussed, but even so, I've found
it impossible to get away from this.

> Also, there's talking about the word for something
> when you're not sure if such a word is established,
> and then there's taking an existing word in
> established use and suggesting there's a problem
> with it, monkeying with the vocabulary, even the
> grammar.

I agree, but see above... and consider this...

When I first started learning Interlingua, I wasn't
ready to admit to myself that I was going to study
it.  I was taking part in a Latin course at the time,
so what I did is I made a set of flashcard with words
that were in my vocabulary of the Latin course and
also in IED.  This way, I could tell myself that I
wasn't studying Interlingua, but Latin.  Later, when
I noticed that I was able to write in Interlingua
(or something which looked very much like it), I got
a lot of flack over my choice of words, even though
I was using words out of the IED.  I got lectured on
the "square bracket" words, but in the end, it seemed
that I was in a situation not unlike the one you are
in concerning "depresio/deprimo".  Many many square
bracket words are in regular use while many others
are strongly distained.  It is thus impossible to
determine which are okay to use armed only with the
IED.

> > what's wrong with saying "presque"?
>
> I'm not sure I follow your argument about presque.
> I might be able to say "sovente" in an Esperanto
> sentence and be understood, so what is wrong with
> that?

The first thing to keep in mind about me and "presque"
is that I use it to be difficult.  In the end, it's
not about logic or methodology.  It's about having
fun.  Plus, I just like the word.  Still, I'll be glad
to rephrase the serious part of my argument with your
question about "sovente" in mind.

There is a difference between using "presque" in IA
and "sovente" in Eo.  If we're talking about IA as an
artifical language spoken by a few people in Northern
and Central Europe, then perhaps there is no
difference, but if we're talking about IA as a tool
for communicating with people who have never studied
IA, then there is a huge difference.

It is well known that several methods were used to
extract the vocabulary for Interlingua. One result of
this is that various words are more recognizable than
others.  So when writing with non-interlinguans in
mind, selecting between alternatives (including those
which are not actually part of Interlingua - like
"presque") the question becomes one of degrees and
not of absolutes.  For some (for example, me just a
few years ago), the word "saepe" would be understood
better than "sovente".  For others, "sovente" would
be better understood.  The best you can do is take
your best guess and hope (... or use several words.)

"Presque" is a word from French -- and should be known
to anybody who speaks more than just a smattering.
It's also clear to anybody who has learned more than
a smattering of Esperanto ("preskaŘ").  It's also
very similar to the Italian expression "presso-che".
(Note that "presso" and "que" are already words in
the IED.)  So, given that nearly all Interlinguans
understand French, Italian, or Esperanto, I can use
the word "presque" with full confidence that it will
be understood.  (And unlike "chez", which tempts me
from time to time, it *looks* like an Interlingua
word.)  One of the reasons I use the word is to tempt
people into complaining about it.  When they do,
the've shown that they can dish out prime vista but
they can't take it.

By the way, the reason I like "crabro" in Interlingua
is that I've already learned the word "krabro" in
Esperanto.  :-)

> > So, are you going to get yourself
> > a copy of Vilborg?
>
> I am definitely intrigued. I still don't have
> the Waringhien grammar, though, that's top of
> my list right now.

For someone who speaks more than one IAL - as you
seem to - I think it's quite valuable.

By Waringhein grammar, do you mean PAG?  I have an
extra copy which I intend to sell as soon as I can
determine a fair price.  I was thinking about
auctioning it off to raise money to fly my family
to the ELNA convention this year.  Would you like to
be kept informed when I do decide to sell it?

> how does an Esperantist know if it's ok to use a
> word if it's not in the official list, and if they
> have no idea about whether or how often the word
> is actually used in real life?

I am not convinced that "officialness" really matters.
As I mentioned, I was called out for using the word
"sekpruno" which is based on a pattern of word
formation derivation going back to the Fundamento.
What matters is that people know where to look to
understand the word.  Words ending in -sion in
Interlingua are so regularly written as -sio in
Esperanto that you would have no trouble using a word
like "depresio."  I know this in the same way that I
know that I can use "depression" in Interlingua
without checking in a dictionary.

Don quoted me and replied:
> > Of course, many of the "cranks" will be the first
> > to tell you that they are *not* the speaker base
> > of Interlingua -- that speaker base being in fact
> > all of "Romania".
>
> Not to be confused with a real place named
> "Romania", whose Romance language was omitted
> from Gode's list of source languages.

Funny you should bring this up.  Along the lines of
this same discussion we can mention that one of the
chief "reformers" (a.k.a. "guardians of rigidity")
has been creating quite a stir by making up new
particles for Interlingua and justifying them by
their similarity to Romanian (the real language of
the real place.)  Among the results is the
publication which I mention above as "confusing."

Amike salutas,
Thomas/Tomaso ALEXANDER.
www.NightinGael.Net
---Anything below this line is not from Thomas ---




__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
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