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CONLANG  March 2005, Week 2

CONLANG March 2005, Week 2

Subject:

Re: McGuffey Readers now available in Tatari Faran!

From:

Sally Caves <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 9 Mar 2005 16:02:24 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (209 lines)

Taking time out to reply to this...

----- Original Message -----
From: "H. S. Teoh" <[log in to unmask]>


> On Mon, Mar 07, 2005 at 12:26:25PM -0500, Sally Caves wrote:
>> San tse!
>
> san tse. :-)
>
>
>> Tatari sa nari!
>
> Hmm, I'm not sure I understand what you intended to refer to.

I need to understand a little better how complements work.  I was attempting
to say that Tatari, your "language," is "funny" as in pleasing, fun.  But
clearly I didn't get there! :)

>> Tse sa nari ei. :)
>
> Interesting use of a complement as a verb. ;-) I get the gist, though.
> :-)

Again, I need to look at this more closely.  Which is why I was nagging you
about repetition! :)  Basically, I think you're a scream.

> OK OK, I realize from what you wrote below that my current
> presentation style for Tatari Faran isn't quite working. So this is no
> fault of yours. If it's any comfort at all, your TF greeting is
> impeccable. :-)

Well, I just copied that, after all!!  It's right up front. (You ARE a
scream).

 I've been meaning to write an introductory tutorial
> that will be much more useful to the prospective learner of Tatari
> Faran than the grammar. The grammar, after all, is the definitive
> description of the language, and as such, it's rather difficult to
> arrange it so as to be easy for the prospective learner to understand
> at first read.

It just needs tables and repetitions, and lots of examples with
translations... you know, the kind of stuff that's real time-consuming, but
is in aid of dummies like me.  Tatari Faran for Dummies.

> I faced the same difficulty the first time I participated in the relay
> with EbisÚdian: I attached a bunch of more-or-less arbitrarily
> organized grammar notes (well, it seemed a logical sequence to me, but
> in retrospect it was quite arbitrary), and expected the recipient to
> be able to piece the puzzle together.

Aaaach!

Well, the results were ...
> rather interesting, as the participants can testify. ;-)

:)

>> >The Editors regret to announce that due to technical inadeq^H^H^H^H
>> >difficulties, no audio samples of Tatari Faran are available yet.
>>
>> Aillyyy! :(
>
> Yes, I know yall's expectations were all up recently, what with
> Arthaey recording Asha'ille (which is really quite pretty) and all
> that. Maybe I should invest in a microphone so that I can, uh, cope
> with the changing standards of the modern world. ;-)

I know the feeling.  I've got the microphone, but need to download Audacity.
And learn Cakewalk.

>
>> ------------------------------
>> Vyko... I love the fact you got this up.  It's a GREAT start!  It took
>> wild
>> horses, though, to drag a compliment in TF out of me--corrections
>> welcome!--since it's so hard to cobble something together.
>
> For a moment, I thought you said "complement", and wondered if there
> was somehow a glaring hole in my explanation of TF complements which
> I'm unaware of. :-)

Right... I should beware complimenting people in their own invented
languages.

>
>> What I think your pages need, and it will take time, is constant
>> reinforcement of information...which might require more web space, which
>> is
>> a pain.
>
> In my case, though, additional webspace isn't really a problem. The TF
> pages are served from a colocated webserver which I administer, and I
> have a total of 2GB of space to squand^H^H^H^H^H^Hmake use of.

I'm jealous.  How can I get a colocated webserver? :)

> I think it would greatly help if I wrote an Introduction to Tatari
> Faran which is geared towards teaching the language to L2 learners,
> :-P rather than expect people to digest the grammar without any aids.
> This has been on my TODO list for a while now; I guess I just needed a
> little push to get going on it. :-)

Nisimol!  ("push")

>> And trying to write in it!  (Something I'm sure you'd like your
>> colleagues to attempt!)  As it stands, you don't have any
>> illustration of possessive pronouns that I could find, although
>> something could be cobbled together from the genitive and the
>> regular pronouns; but how does the genitive ending mesh with the
>> case affixes?
>
> Hmm. I think I made the cardinal mistake of assuming that the reader
> would know how to put the pieces together. Probably another reason I
> need to write an introductory tutorial.

Knowing how to teach something you know intimately is a rare skill;
second-guessing the average Dummie is difficult to do.  It's easier to
brilliantly create, oddly enough. :)  I think that if I just printed all
your pages out and spread them out on the floor in front of me, I could
*get* it; it was my efforts to produce something on the cuff, and in such
short a time, that made me fail.  That's why a RELAY would be good for me
and Tatari Faran.  Even so, it's easier to translate than compose in a
foreign language, don't you agree?

>> Couldn't find "your" at all;
>
> That is odd. I just tried searching for "your" and it turned up the
> entry for _tsen_ correctly. Did you by any chance tick the checkbox
> that says "exclude pseudo-entries"?

Nope.  I'll try it again.  Maybe put instructions at the top of the page?

>> I figured out that to find "see" or "and" (and not get every
>> instance in which you use these words in your English directions)
>> that I needed to specify the word's part of speech.  Didn't work in
>> every case.  I'm sure that it will improve as you add to it.
>
> Yes, this is a symptom of my lexicon source not being adequately
> marked so that the script could tell between words that belong to the
> definition and words that belong to lexicon structure ("see also" and
> the like). I guess it's time to fix this, even if it entails the
> daunting prospect of revising all 776 entries.
>
>
>> I LOVE your Tatari Faran, Teoh; it is so original!.
>
> teirias pipi.

I'll hazard a guess. :)

>> But you make it so difficult to learn, primarily because you don't
>> give enough repetitive information.  Repetition is GOD in
>> conteaching.  ;-)  Actually in all natlang teaching.  Maggelity
>> aside.
> [...]
>
> Yes I know... like I said, the grammar was intended to be a definitive
> description rather than a learner's guide.

Right... I know.  You don't even have to turn it into a "teach yourself
Tatari Faran."

 I will start working on the
> latter now! :-)

>
>> (Whose own pages are terribly omissive as well...so I'm one to talk)
>
> Speaking of which, are the remaining lessons in the Teach Yourself
> Teonaht page up yet?

Nooooooo... :(

I was all hooked and eager after reading the
> first (few?) page(s), but was rather disappointed to find that the
> remainder of the tutorial was not available yet.

Well, as someone else said, it is very difficult to write a Teach Yourself.
What components in your language are to come first, especially when
everything depends on everything else?  It's like trying to find the
beginning of a circle.  I was trying to be very clever with the Teach
Yourself... the pictures, the little story, the intrigue... J.A.J. was going
to enter this city and we'd find out about Teonaht culture as well as
language, and there would be social infringements, a romantic encounter,
trouble with the police, things purchased and stolen, that sort of thing.
The project was WAY too time-consuming, but ultimately worth doing,
eventually.  But to make it a story and a lesson at the same time got me in
over my head, and increased the "circular" dilemma even more.  How do you
combine a story with a grammatical introduction, when all parts of speech
are needed all the time?  I've seen Heini's "Welsh is FUN-tastic, where he
does something like this with cartoons, but it's another thing to do it in
your own language. I had thought of going back to the boring old system of
providing a "quiz" at the end of every chapter in the Grammar, but that's no
fun.  There's no story.  When I'm freed up for pursuing creative endeavors,
I'll get back to that.  It might make a very nice hypertext, an artform I'm
exploring in other dimensions of my life.  Tremendous hard work, and needing
a real domain--I'd like to get a domain name and purchase more than just 20
megabytes.

> In any case, thanks very much for your feedback. That's what prods me
> to do what needs to be done rather than what I habitually do. :-)

You're very welcome, Teoh!

Sally

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March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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