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CONLANG  June 2005, Week 2

CONLANG June 2005, Week 2

Subject:

Re: THEORY: Are commands to believe infelicitous?

From:

tomhchappell <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 13 Jun 2005 23:42:39 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (285 lines)

Hello, Ray.  Thanks for writing.
As you can see, I did not read your posts in the order in which you
posted them.  I apologize for that, if it turns out to matter.

Hello, ConLang-List.
There are parts of this conversation where both Ray's contribution
and my response seem likely to me to be On-Topic for this list.  I
have handled them first.

There are other parts that I wonder might be Off-Topic, whether
beginning with my response, with Ray's contribution, or earlier.  I
have tried to postpone those parts to after a "marquee" made of
doubled asterisks -- I'm sure you'll be able to see it.  Skip that
part if you don't want to take the chance it could be On-Topic after
all.

Thanks for writing, and for reading, to all contributors to this
thread.

--- Tom H.C. in MI

--- In [log in to unmask], Ray Brown <ray.brown@F...> wrote:
> [snip]
> > > Absolutely! trust and faith. The words for belief & trust are
> > > related in
> > > some languages.
> >
> > Interesting point.  Which languages?  Related how?  Which words?
>
> Greek, for a start.
> _pistis_ (noun) = trust [in another person], good faith,
trustworthiness,
> assurance, confidence.
> _pisteuein_ = to trust, rely on, put faith in, believe.

Thanks, Ray.
I had heard that "Hagia Pistia" (="Holy Faith") is/was supposed to be
the name of the Angel who was assigned the task of placing the
Serpent in the Garden of Eden.  But I didn't know about the "trust"
angle in Greek.

Other contributors also had variations of "believe"'s "semantic
spread" (I'm not sure what the technical term really is) in other
languages, not all related to the "trust/faith" pair.  I thank them
as well.

> [snip]

> I can see the color of the screen. That is not a matter of belief -
it is
> a matter of knowledge.

What is the difference between belief and knowledge?
In particular;  If Person A thinks Person B "believes" statement S,
but Person B thinks Person B "knows" statement S, does it make sense
for Person A to "command" Person B to believe statement "not S"?

> [snip]

> decide [act of will]

Here you bring up a facet of what I have been trying to get at,
although perhaps I have not been as clear as I, or maybe you, could
wish.
In "deciding", to what degree, and at what "points" along the "path"
to decision, is the "will" involved?

> [snip]

*******************************************
*******************************************
**   Herewith follow the                 **
**   possibly Off-Topic                  **
**   parts of our conversation:          **
*******************************************
*******************************************


--- In [log in to unmask], Ray Brown <ray.brown@F...> wrote:
> On Saturday, June 11, 2005, at 05:38 , Tom Chappell wrote:
>
> > Hello, the list.  Hello, Ray; thanks for writing.
>
> You're welcome.

Thanks!  I appreciate being welcome.  In case you were wondering, I
welcome you, too.

>
> > [snip]
> [snip]
> > Many people consider this world to be the only world, and all
effort
> > and resources spent on any other "world" a sinful waste.
>
> That rather depends upon what one means by 'this world'.

> And any such ban
> on teaching about an afterlife would be dictatorial &
> contrary to freedom
> of speech.

Cases before the U.S. Supreme Court often involve balancing (that is,
choosing between) rights guaranteed by the U.S. Bill of Rights, the
first ten Amendments to the U.S. Constitution.  These cases
frequently involve conflicts in which one such right can be upheld
only if another is withheld (in that particular case).

My "story idea" (which my never become a "story", alas) specifically
incorporates such a conflict:  and, no clear majority resolves it in
any particular way.

I just thought that one reasonable response to the hijackings of
September 11, 2001, and the kami-kaze attacks on buildings with
thousands of occupants using airliners with dozens of unwilling
passengers, would be, "Well, this is just the natural result of any
philosophy that teaches that there is a heaven!"

The OTL U.S. of America is the most religious nation in the modern
West *here*.  Immigrants here say you can't get the full American
experience unless you get some of it through your religious
organization.  You're pretty free to choose which religion, but you
pretty much have to have one instead of none.

Nevertheless only about 44% of modern U.S.Americans say they are
very "religious".  I thought, what if the other 56% felt some of the
above feeling?

To get a constitutional amendment would require a majority in each of
two-thirds of the congressional districts and each of three-fourths
of the states.  Ain't gonna happen.

Everyone wants to be able to train their own children in their own
religion, if they have one.

Nobody likes any kind of ex-post-facto law.

But, as the so-called "Patriot Act" proves, it is possible to get
legislation passed, and ruled constitutional, that does not guarantee
to non-citizens not technically in the U.S. all the civil rights
citizens have in the U.S.

That's why I made the Alternate U.S.A. pass the regulation:
"No alien can be re-admitted to the U.S. if it can be shown that,
since their first admission and since 9/11/01, they have taught to
any person of military age or younger, other than their own custodial
children, a doctrine of life-after-death".

You bet your sweet bippy (as Rowan and Martin used to say) it
violates freedom of speech, and freedom of religion as well.  My
Point-of-Departure would be that 60% of the Senate and a majority of
the House and a majority of the Supreme Court and the President might
all agree that it was O.K. to limit the freedom of some aliens who
weren't in the country yet, to limit their freedom to recruit more
people to such a philosophy as might make them willing to commit such
acts as those of September 11 2001.

I'm not recommending it.  I'm certainly not saying it wouldn't cause
a lot of conflict -- I expect marital discord between parents, plus
families who feel that the best instructor-in-their-faith for their
children happens to be a non-citizen, etc.

> [snip]
> Greek, for a start.
> _pistis_ (noun) = trust [in another person], good faith,
trustworthiness,
> assurance, confidence.
> _pisteuein_ = to trust, rely on, put faith in, believe.

Do you remember a story, set before World War I in German-speaking
Central Europe, in which the angel Hagia Pistia rescued a young boy
named Adi, who had wandered off into the woods while ill?  The boy
recognized the angel's name, and knew that Hagia Pistia had been the
one who placed the Serpent in the Garden.  "Yes, I did", said the
angel, "but I was only following orders."  And then the angel led Adi
back to the Schiklgruber household.

> [snip]
> > Many people (me often among them) disagree that belief is an act
of
> > will.
>
> Then you and I simply do not mean the same things by the
words 'believe'
> and 'belief'.

Is "act of will" incorporated as part of the definiens in your
definition of "believe" and "belief"?  Or is it something you deduce
from what is so incorporated?

> [snip]
> >> Look at this screen:  What color do you see it?  Now will it
> >> otherwise; Does it change color?
>
> Why should I will the screen to change color!!!!! That is silly.

This is dodging the question.
The question is not why you should will the screen to change color;
the question is whether willing it can make it change.

Incidentally, Joseph Bridwell apparently has what are to him very
convincing reasons why he should will things he sees to change color.

So, the three of us, at least -- Ray Brown, Joseph Bridwell, and Tom
Chappell -- are in a three-way disagreement here.
Joseph B. thinks there may be good reasons to will one's perception
of color to change, and that it is possible.
Tom C. thinks there may not be any good reasons to will one's
perception of color to change, and that it should not be possible
for "healthy" persons.
Ray B. thinks there are probably no good reasons to will one's
perception of color to change, and that therefore it is uninteresting
to ask or answer the question of whether or under what circumstances
it is possible.

> I can see the color of the screen. That is not a matter of belief -
it is
> a matter of knowledge.

What is the difference between belief and knowledge?
In particular;  If Person A thinks Person B "believes" statement S,
but Person B thinks Person B "knows" statement S, does it make sense
for Person A to "command" Person B to believe statement "not S"?

I know the partial definition of "know" that starts
off "epistemology".  I know that "epistemology" starts out with
dividing investigators between "skeptics" and the rest.  (Unlike
other philosophical uses of the word "skeptic", which usually apply
to investigators who doubt a commonsense notion.)  To "know"
something, one must "believe" it, and it must be "true".  Non-
skeptics accept every true belief as "knowledge".  Skeptics insist
that to "know" something, one must not only believe it, and have it
be true -- one must also have "sufficient reason" for believing it.

My questions on this thread are really not so much about that
epistemological difference between "belief" and "knowledge", as about
the question I asked in the paragraph before the previous paragraph.

>
> Now if I were blind, I would not know the color of the screen.

> I would have to

If you "would have to", would it be a matter of your will?

> rely on/ put my trust in some one else. If several people told me
> different colors,

> I would have to

Sim: If you "have to", how much willingness is involved?

> decide [act of will]

Here you bring up a facet of what I have been trying to get at,
although perhaps I have not been as clear as I, or maybe you, could
wish.
In "deciding", to what degree, and at what "points" along the "path"
to decision, is the "will" involved?

> which person I
> considered most trustworthy. I would believe that person.

I might not believe anybody.

> [snip]
> >> Some people would say your belief and your will are related as
your
> >> color vision and your will are.
>
> That doesn't make sense - see above.

I tried to explain it again in a reply to a later post.  (But the
reply was posted earlier.)  Read it again, and see if it still
doesn't make sense.  Or if it at least makes more sense.  Or if at
least it is a more organized and clearer kind of nonsense.

> [snip]

Thanks, very much, for writing, Ray, Joseph, and everybody.

-----

Tom H.C. in MI

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March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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