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AUXLANG  June 2005, Week 4

AUXLANG June 2005, Week 4

Subject:

Auxlangs and Religion

From:

Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:25:31 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (207 lines)

Dear Kjell (and others),

Before I get to Kjell's interesting note, let me
add to what I wrote yesterday:

I had written:
> One detail I'd like to have clarified is when did
> the conversation between Baha'u'llah and Kamal
> Pasha (which he writes about in the Epistle of the
> Wolf) take place? I'd always assumed that it took
> place before 1887, but thinking about it now, I
> have no real reason to think that.

Ask and you shall recieve.  Last night while flipping
through the book by Wendy Heller which Cousin Anthony
mentioned in his note, I saw that the conversation is
said to have taken place in 1863, even though the
prophet did not preserve it for us in writing until
1891.  Taking the earlier date, that would put Baha'i
support of the IAL idea 24 years before the publishing
of Esperanto, and even 15 years before the "jam temp
esta" version of the langauge.

Heller points out that in 1891, Baha'u'llah, while
describing the conversation to Kamal Pasha, mentions
that currently (i.e. in 1891) such a language and
script have already been devised - and that there
were two languages in use at that time - Eo and Vp.
Personally, I find it difficult to imagine that the
Baha'i Jesus could be talking about Volapük, seeing
as by 1894 or so, Vp was already seen as an idea
whose time had come and gone. What's amazing to me,
however, is that so many modern Baha'i can read
this passage and imagine that he's talking about
something other than Esperanto.

Kjell wrote:
> In the 90's I was asked by a Swedish Baha'i who had
> heard about Interlingua to talk about that language
> to Baha'is in Uppsala which I did as well as I
> could. I was then told that "The Esperantists were
> here in the 70's.

I vaguely remember you saying this before.  That's
an interesting comment -- interesting in that it
makes me wonder what thoughts were behind that
comment from that Upsala Baha'i.

I've lost track of how many times I've been to the
local group here.  I'd been thinking that it was
three times because I found two sets of lecture
notes when I went back this last time.  Reading
through one set last night, I think I saw reference to
a third, although it's possible that the reference was
just to the other set.  So maybe it was four times.

At any rate, each time I went back, I tried to
approach the subject from a different angle. I suspect
the missing set of notes would have been on a topic
something like "why the Baha'i should be involved with
Esperanto."  Another was more or less a report on the
book "Vivo de Zamenhof" with information on the
personal convictions which moved Zamenhof and how they
relate to Baha'i ideals.  Another one was loosely
based on Pei's book and addressed the question of what
"one language for the world" could be like, which I
presented in the light of Baha'u'llah's admonition
to Kamal Pasha as reported in the Epistle of the Wolf.

When I went back this last time, I didn't do a lot of
preparation ahead of time except to re-read the two
sets of notes which I was able to locate.  I had it
in mind to ask the people there which presentation
they would prefer.  The only person who expressed a
preference asked me to do the one I would like to do.
Unfortunately, I followed his advice.

I chose the presentation on "what could the langauge
which Baha'u'llah spoke about be like?".  I think
'Abdu'l-Baha described the language in some detail,
and this description (along with what Baha'u'llah said
to Kamal Pasha) rules out the idea, not uncommon among
Baha'i, that "the" language will be English, Persian,
or Arabic.  It also rules out many of the ideas which
Pei mentions in his book, which I covered one by one.

In the end, picking the more nerdy of the two options
to present wasn't such a major gaff, since we spent
as much time just talking and going off on tangents,
but I think a presentation on what can be done with
Esperanto or what motivated it in the first place
would carry more weight than a nuts and bolts
discussion of how to build a language.

Well, speaking of tangents, I think I've gone off on
one.  The reason I brought this up was that it was
a bit odd to give a presentaion based on notes which
I'd written as a new Esperantist.  On one page of my
notes (a flip-chart, in this case), I had a sample of
Interlingua.  When I made the notes, I wasn't really
able to read or speak Interlingua, but now I can.  I
was caught off guard when I saw it.  I mentioned that
I'd learned to use the language since makeing the
notes, but I do not advocate the language.  Nobody
asked me why not or seemed very interested.  What did
get interest was a passage of angla-franca "I prend
the libertee to soumett to you's inspection...".
Everyone thought that sounded so nice when I read it.
:-)

> I had very long discussions with them trying to
> understand how they looked at different things,
> how their decision structures looked etc.

What do you mean by "decision structures"? 

> I got the impression that Baha'i can be seen as a
> Western and an Iranien branch. Both were represented
> in Uppsala as there are many Iranians living here

I'm not totally sure I understand what you're saying,
but what I see here in Rochester, NY, is that there
is a good mix of "white people" (*) and people who
were born somewhere in the "moslem" parts of the world
- and thus speak Persian or Arabic as their first
language.  I never got the impression that the people
from the different parts of the world approach their
faith differently, but that wouldn't be surprizing
given the distances involved.  I should also point out
that the Baha'i do a lot of good work in bringing the
races together, and their big events are always well
integrated -- so it's not just for "white people."

(*) not necessarily the most polite way to say it,
but it's the clearest way I can think of in this
context.

> Now, the Baha'i is a very tolerant religion.

Very true.  What amazed me about them is how they
can see spirituality in everything - even in the
experiences of some Atheist Esperantist - and how
they strive to learn from this.

> But if you scratch a little deeper you will find
> that if you happen to be gay in the society they
> finally will arrive at, if history goes  their way,
> then they will try to reform you. "No persecution,
> but one will help them to become normal..."

I hadn't encountered this.  It seems consistent with
what I know about the Baha'i Faith, though.  I
recall that they don't drink alcohol, for example,
but they stress an *individual* search for the truth.
If someone were to come out and preach hard against
homosexuality - like happens in some churches - this
would seem to violate that last principle.

> There were also ideas that Persian really should be
> the language of the comming world as most of the
> scriptures were said to have been written in Arabic
> and Persian. I don't know about proportions.

The problem is that the Baha'i position has changed
over the years.  As the torch passed from Baha'u'llah
to `Abdu'l-Bahá to Shogi Effendi to the international
house of justice, the message became less and less
favorable for Esperanto.  My conception of God (and
again, I'm an atheist) is that He would be unchanging.
The Baha'i are much more open than I was in my Born
Again phase, but it's difficult to see how they can
reconcile this, even though they clearly do.

Even more difficult to reconcile, though, is the
thought that Persian or Arabic (or English) should
be "THE" language, given that the first prophet said
that *all* children in the world would be learning
two languages (this rules out any language currently
in use as a primary language) and that his son went
into some detail about how the IAL would be created
(it will be easy to learn, contain words from many
different languages, and so forth.)

> Personally I don't believe in the idea of letting
> some Religion or Political Party support the IAL
> one is interested in. There is only one thing that
> helps - leg work. That one tries to use the language
> as much as possible, and then it is obvious that the
> more recognizeable the language is, the better.

There is a danger of letting a language become too
closely linked with *one* group (i.e. it would be bad
for LFN if the outside world saw LFN as a language
just for socialists) but an IAL needs all the friends
it can get.  After all, who is going to *do* the
leg-work?

Amike salutas,
Thomas/Tomaso ALEXANDER.
www.NightinGael.Net
---Anything below this line is not from Thomas ---

__________________________________________________
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