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AUXLANG  June 2005, Week 4

AUXLANG June 2005, Week 4

Subject:

Auxlangs and Religion (was: Specifications for an auxiliary langUAge)

From:

Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:36:32 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (231 lines)

Dear SF, Don T, Cousin Anthony, and others

Don T (short for "The Third" - after Harlow Can You
Go and Gasper the friendly Don) wrote:

> The only examples of this that I can think of all
> relate to Esperanto. Have any of these tendencies
> supported Interlingua, etc.?

Interlingua is, to a great extent, rather uninspiring.
It takes a special type to be stirred by a list of
words and endings methodically "extracted" from the
source material and presented to the world with page
after page of explanation of how this result actually
serves no real purpose - except perhaps by accident.
While these pages serve to protect Interlingua from
"reformomania".  Compare this to the story (even if
exaggerated) of a passionate individual dedicating
his entire life (in the form of both time and money)
to giving something to the world to make it a better
place.

> Also, I can't think of many examples of support by
> religious groups. There is, of course, the famous
> example of Baha'ism and Esperanto, which dates from
> the 1920s (I believe), but never went anywhere.

I'm glad Cousin Anthony already replied to this.  As
I recall, Anthony is a Baha'i (right Anthony?) but not
an Esperantist.  I am a non-Baha'i (and a professing
Atheist) and an Esperantist.  The local Baha'i
community has been kind enough to have me in to speak
on several occasions over the last few years, so I
have had an opportunity to dig into this topic.

Baha'u'llah actually described Esperanto - although
not by name - and called on the leaders of the world
to make it happen.  This was in his "Epistle to the
Son of the Wolf."  This was written, according to
the best source I could get on short notice, a year
before Baha'u'llah's death in 1892.  It's interesting
to me that quite often, the Baha'i will look at this
same passage for justification for *not* getting more
involved with Esperanto.

One detail I'd like to have clarified is when did the
conversation between Baha'u'llah and Kamal Pasha
(which he writes about in the Epistle of the Wolf)
take place?  I'd always assumed that it took place
before 1887, but thinking about it now, I have no
real reason to think that.

Anyway, he said was that the leaders of the world
should either chose an existing language or create a
new one.  He then goes on to explain that this would
mean that ALL people would then be learning two
languages.  Since an existing language would not need
to be learned by its native speakers, I conclude that
he really saw "the one language" to be a new language
and not one of the existing ones.  Occasionally, a
baha'i will tell me that this falls upon the
governments and not individuals.  (That is, they don't
have to learn Esperanto till it is pronounced
official).  To that, I point out that governments
rarely do anything which hasn't been demonstrated
by the people first.  Also, Baha'u'llah says that
if "men" (presumably this means "people in general"
keeping in mind that the quote is a translation)
"[were] to take fast hold on that which hath been
mentioned, the whole earth would come to be regarded
as one country, and the people would be relieved and
freed from the necessity of acquiring and teaching
different languages."  So, the governments have a
role, but so do all men.

Anthony mentioned another writing of Baha'u'llah
saying that Esperanto would need to be revised.  It
is interesting to me that the basic documents of
Esperanto include the possibility for a one-time
revision when it has received wide acceptance.  Some
Baha'i have speculated that this would allow the
governments to select both an "existing" language
(Esperanto exists) and a "new" language (a revision)
at the same time.  Anyway, this was well before
1920.  Zamenhoff spoke in 1913 about the Baha'i
faith and their desire to unify the peoples of the
world.

From an outsider's point of view, I also find it
interesting that Baha'u'llah's last comment on the
subject (pointing out that "a new language and a new
script have been devised") often receives less
attention than other comments. (Witness Anthony's
reference saying that Esperanto would need to be
changed.) I see this as the human tendency to avoid
obligations.  If we can put our principles off
to a later date we can spend more time doing other
things.  (This last comment should not be taken as
saying that I don't have a great respect for many
Baha'i -- I sure do.  They do wonderful work.)
Heck, it almost looks like Baha'u'llah is blessing
the special characters of Esperanto. :-)

If Baha'u'llah didn't mention Esperanto by name, his
son and successor sure did -- although he seemed to
slowly change his thoughts on the topic over the
years.  This makes it easy for followers of the Baha'i
faith to pick the one quote they like and follow that
one.  As with most things in life, the reality is more
complex. At the very least, I have no problems telling
the Baha'i that I meet that Abdul Baha wanted them to
get involved with Esperanto and to associate with
Esperantists.

It's difficult for me to accept that this connection
between the Baha'i faith and Esperanto "never went
anywhere, as Don T said.  It "never went anywhere" in
the same way that Esperanto "never went anywhere." (A
claim which I hear all the time - or was it "never
took off.)  Here I am today with Esperanto as a
positive force in my life ... and with the connection
between the Baha'i Faith and Esperanto as a positive
force in my life, even if none of the area Baha'i
speak Esperanto and I'm an atheist.  That's somewhere,
isn't it?  Most Esperantists have an idea (at least
a vague one) what the Baha'i faith is, and most Baha'i
have at least heard the word Esperanto.  That's also
"somewhere" as far as I'm concerned.

Cousin Anthony wrote:
> As recounted in Wendy Heller's biography, Zamenhof's
> daughter Lidia (who was a Baha'i) often heard
> requests for a revision when she lectured in Europe
> and America during the 1930s.

I'll have to read that one again.  I received it as
a gift from a local Baha'i and there are a few dozen
sticky notes poking out from the pages of my copy.
My recent investigation into the question of reform
is that this question will always be with us.  This
is true of any language which has any success -- the
myriad suggestions for improving Interlingua, for
example.

> Unfortunately, the concept of a language effectively
> constrained by a central committee loyal to the
> ideas of a sole author wasn't conducive to the
> aftermath of WW2

This sounds familiar.  Was it 'Abdu'l-Baha who said
that "one man" cannot create a language?  Did one man
create Esperanto?  I don't think so.  One man started
it, but Zamenhof repeated frequently in his life that
he doesn't own Esperanto - that he has no power to
change it any more than any other individual
Esperantist.  Zamenhof published the first book of
Esperanto with just 900 words.  Many many people
have added to this over the years.  Still, I've heard
many Baha'i use this "one man cannot create a
language" line from 'Abdu'l-Baha as their excuse for
not doing anything to promote linguistic equality by
actually learning another language.

By the way, what's this "central committee"?  I'll
guess that you're talking about the Akademio, but I
don't see how it fits the description you've applied.

> Anyway, 'Abdu'l-Baha, evidently knowing in advance
> that a satisfactory reform of Esperanto would
> never take place, also specified before WW1 that
> a new language should be formed by an international
> committee - and that the hopes of Esperantists would
> be realised in this way.

One reason why I think I would never be able to become
a good Baha'i is I'm still programmed from my fundie
Christian days to expect the Word of God to be
internally consistent. My understanding of progressive
revelation and individual search for truth is that
scripture doesn't necessarily have to be internally
consistent to have the power to instruct. 'Abdu'l-Baha
lived a fair amout of time and the world around him
changed.  Perhaps that explains (with no contradicion)
why he was able to act on the Divine Knowledge to
which you refer above, and yet at other times of his
life, write such glowing praise for Esperanto that
it's difficult to imagine how any serious Baha'i
would doubt that all Baha'i should learn Esperanto
and be actively involved in teh Esperanto community.

Back to quoting Don T:
> Someone mentioned one other example the other day,
> but I've already forgotten it. Are there others?

That was Oomoto from Japan.  They're similar to the
Baha'i faith in that they believe that there are
different faiths meant to teach one Truth.  Beyond
that, I know little about them.

Stefan mentioned "the new latin for the church".  My
take is that this is an Esperantist idea to encourage
Catholics to use Esperanto.  I once had a visitor in
my house who was both an Esperanto speaker and a
Jesuit priest.  He mentioned a particular Esperantist
who had been hounding him about this "new Latin" idea
and he told me why he didn't support it, and what
would need to happen for him to do so.  I didn't get
the impression that this was a very successful idea.
Beyond the Pope's announcements in Esperanto and
a Catholic Esperanto club, I don't think there's a
lot to be said here.

Stefan:
> Esperanto is said to have its "interna ideo,"
> expanded upon by Zamenhof in his "homaranismo,"
> which apparently failed to resonate with large
> numbers of people.

I think it's important not to mix up the interna
ideo with homaranismo.

Amike salutas,
Thomas/Tomaso ALEXANDER.
www.NightinGael.Net
---Anything below this line is not from Thomas ---

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December 2004, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
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August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 1
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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