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CONLANG  June 2005, Week 4

CONLANG June 2005, Week 4

Subject:

Re: triphtong

From:

tomhchappell <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:38:37 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (146 lines)

Hello, everyone, and thanks for writing.
About those triphthongs.
For most (not all by a long shot) diphthongs, either the on-glide or 
the off-glide is either palatalization or labialization; is that not 
so?
Similarly, but partly-independently, very many mono-syllable 
diphthongs could just as easily be considered as a vowel preceded or 
followed by a semi-vowel; that is, either CV or VC, where C is a semi-
vowel.  Is that not true?
Assuming all that, the easiest way to construct a triphthong would be 
to tack a semi-vowel onto the front or back of an existing diphthong; 
right?
Twenty easy examples might be (just assuming English pronunciation):
waw, wew, wiw, wow, wuw;
yay, yey, yiy, yoy, yuy;
way, wey, wiy, woy, wuy;
yaw, yew, yiw, yow, yuw.
No, I don't know how to pronounce the CiC or CuC ones either;
and I'm aware not all the others are words even in English.
But wow, yay, and yow are interjections in some dialects and/or 
registers of English; and way, yaw, and yew are perfectly good 
English words.
Aren't "way" and "yaw" triphthongs?
"yew" might just be a diphthong:-- straight from high-front-unrounded 
to low-back-rounded.
Also, the usual English-language way of pronouncing the name of the 
25th letter of the Latin alphabet, "Y", often spelled "wye", is a 
triphthong, isn't it?
-----
Now, here's a couple of questions:
How many and which triphthongs in how many and which natlangs aren't 
possible to consider as semivowel-plus-diphthong nor as diphthong-
plus-semivowel?
Among the others, for which ones is it not possible to consider as 
the semivowel either (sorry this isn't C-XSAMPA) "y" or "w"? (that 
is, either pre-palatalization, pre-labialization, post-
palatalization, or post-labialization.)
I know it's not kosher to ask a third question in "a couple of 
questions", but; Are the statistics for the above two questions 
significantly different for triphthongs than for diphthongs?
-----
Thanks for writing.
Tom H.C. in MI


--- In [log in to unmask], Ray Brown <ray.brown@F...> wrote:
> On Friday, June 24, 2005, at 04:36 , Joe wrote:
> 
> > Henrik Theiling wrote:
> >
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >> Joe <joe@W...> writes:
> >>
> >>> # 1 wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> In my dictionnary (a French dictionnary), at the 
word "triphtong"
> >>>> (triphtongue) it says the normal stuff: a vowel that changes 
two
> >>>> times but they give as example the english word "fire"
> 
> The description of a triphthong is correct, but the example is not 
a good 
> one - because......
> 
> [snip]
> >>> It's a triphthong in my British dialect.  [fAi@].  In American
> >>> English, I believe it's more like [fAjr=].  Also, see 'hour' 
[aU@],
> >>> IME.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Doesn't it need to be one syllable to be a triphthong?
> 
> It most certainly does.
> 
> >> I never
> >> thought Japanese 'blue/green' = 'aoi' was a triphthong, but it 
fact
> >> three monophthongs.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> >>  I'd say that 'fire' and 'hour' should be two
> >> syllables, no?  I perceive them as:
> >>
> >>    hour   [aU@]  /aU).@/   not /a_U_@/   (no CXS for a 
triphthong...)
> >>    fire   [fAi@] /fAi).@/  not /fA_i_@/
> >>
> 
> 'hour' and 'fire' probably are disyllabic for you.
> 
> > I'd describe them both as monosyllables, at least the way I say 
them.
> 
> ..and they are obviously monosyllables for Jo.
> 
> The simple fact that there is quite a bit of variation in the 
> pronunciation of these words, even in Britain let alone the rest of 
the 
> anglophone word.
> 
> As monosyllables they are pronounced either with a triphthong /aU@/ 
and 
> /faI@/ or, in those areas where /r/ is trilled, as /aUr/ 
and /faIr/. One 
> also comes across the pronunciations [A:] and [fA:].
> 
> As disyllables they may be /aU).@/ and /faI).@/ as given above. In 
the 
> Cardiff & Newport areas of south-east Wales they are ['@u).w@] and 
> ['f@I).j@] - I believe similar pronunciations where the second 
syllable 
> clearly begins with a semi-vowel or approximant occur elsewhere.
> 
> I have no doubt there are other variants in Britain.
> 
> I say English _fire_ is a bad example of a triphthong because:
> (a) the word does not contain a triphthong in all anglophone 
> pronunciations;
> (b) those that do pronounce a triphthong, do not pronounce the more 
> typical type of triphthong.
> 
> The triphthong, when used, in _fire_ is a falling one; the vowel 
is /a/ 
> (or some similar low, central vowel) then the tongue glides towards 
[I] 
> before moving to the central [@] position. Triphthongs more 
typically IMO 
> begin are a combo of rising diphthong & falling diphthongs and 
better 
> examples are Italian words like: _suoi_ "his/ her" (masc.pl.) and 
_miei_ 
> "my" (masc.pl.)
> 
> Ray
> ===============================================
> http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
> ray.brown@f...
> ===============================================
> "A mind which thinks at its own expense will always
> interfere with language."         J.G. Hamann, 1760

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