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CONLANG  July 2005, Week 3

CONLANG July 2005, Week 3

Subject:

Re: THEORY: Language for a Multi-Species Society: Non-SexBased Gender Among AIs

From:

tomhchappell <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 20 Jul 2005 22:26:03 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (266 lines)

Hello, John, Doug, and others.  Thanks for writing.

[TERMINOLGY: "RATIONAL" vs "SAPIENT"]
Having read more of Greville G. Corbett's "Gender", I think the 
prevailing terminology for "people who can talk" vs "people who can't 
talk" on the Animacy (or whatever) Hierarchy or Scale, is "RATIONAL", 
not "SAPIENT" as I had proposed.
So, I am going to "change" my conlang's grammarians' (they only exist 
in my imagination, after all) terminology from "Sapient vs 
Nonsapient" genders to "Rational vs Nonrational" genders.

[SUB-GENDERS AND MORE ON THE SEX-BASED PART]
Corbett says in "Gender" that Slavonic languages are 
developing "subgenders".
Slavonic languages mostly have three genders, as most IE languages 
do; and these are usually called Masculine, Feminine, and Neuter.*

Each of these genders is developing two "subgenders"; Animate and 
Inanimate.

Not all categories target words have to agree with the subgenders; 
and whether agreement with the subgender is required depends on the 
combination of gender and number of the controlling noun.
It is something like (I am making this up so details may vary); 
if the controlling noun is Feminine, then the target word has to 
agree with the sub-gender, whether the controlling noun is singular 
or plural;
if the controlling noun is Masculine Plural, then the target word has 
to agree with the sub-gender, 
but agreement is optional if the controlling noun is Masculine 
Singular;
if the controlling noun is Neuter Singular, then the target word has 
to agree with the sub-gender, 
but sub-gender agreement is impossible if the controlling noun is 
Neuter Plural.

Also, languages vary a lot in which categories of words are targets 
for gender-agreement.

In English, for instance, practically the only thing that has to 
agree in gender is the 3rd-person pronoun that co-refers to the 
noun's referent.   

So I was thinking that I might make the 25-type "sex-based genders" 
actually all be sub-genders of "Living"; and make them apply only to 
the pronouns used to refer [+L] nouns' referents.

[SEX-BASED "GENDERS" AS SUB-GENDERS OF "LIVING"]
First, "Living" entities are those that can grow or spread or 
multiply.
Sex-based genders will apply only to those that can spread and 
multiply, in the sense of, reproduce themselves.
So "Living" entities that can only grow or spread, but not multiply, 
will be of "neuter" subgender.
The main subgender will be Feminine, which will apply to all entities 
which can "bear" young.  This will include asexually-reproducing 
organisms, and machines that can copy themselves.
There will also be a subgender of Masculine, which will apply to any 
entity that can "fertilize" a Feminine entity (cause/assist "her" 
to "bear" "young" that will then "resemble" both "her" and "him".)
These will not be mutually exclusive; some entities will be both 
Feminine and Masculine, some just Feminine, some just Masculine.  But 
there will be no Masculine entities of any species that does not also 
contain Feminine entities; whereas, any entity that can reproduce 
itself without the help of another will be Feminine.

[REGISTERS AND SPECIALIST LANGUAGE (HUSBANDMEN'S LANGUAGE)]
I notice in reading dialog of stories set on farms amongst people who 
are all multi-generational farmers, that their usual word for a pig, 
for instance, isn't "pig"; it's "gelt" or "boar" or "sow" or 
something.  In other words, even when they are not talking about 
reproduction, the important animals -- the ones they are in the 
business of caring for -- are always referred to in a way that evokes 
the reproductive capacity, as well as the reproductive history, of 
that animal.
This was even if the species in question was not one that milk was 
taken from.
I imagine a group of plant-husbandmen (marihuana-hemp growers, for 
instance, where that was legal) might also refer to male plants and 
female plants by different terms all the time, whether or not they 
were talking about the plants' reproducing.
So, I think the Feminine and Masculine subgenders of the Living gender
could have variants for "past feminine", "future feminine", "past 
masculine", "future masculine".
The difference between a Heifer and a Cow could be the difference 
between a 'futFEM' and a 'FEM'.  
The difference between a Bull and an Ox could be the difference 
between a 'MASC' and a 'pastMASC'.

-----

Summarizing, everybody's language could have four sub-genders of 
Living; [-FM]="Neuter" and [+F-M]="Feminine" (which one of these 
should be unmarked?), and [+M-F]="Masculine" and [+FM]
="Hermaphrodite".
These sub-genders would be marked only on pronouns.

In "Husbandsmen's Register" (Hunters, Herdsmen, Zoologists, and 
Farmers would speak it of Living Animals; Foresters, Farmers, and 
Botanists would speak it of Living plants; Nursery-keepers and 
Physicians would speak it of Living Rationals) these subgenders would 
acquire nuances.  An entity which was -FEM could nevertheless be 
+PastF (maybe it was spayed) or +FutF (maybe it is immature) or both; 
and entity which was -MASC could nevertheless be +PastM (maybe it has 
been gelded) or +FutM (maybe it is immature) or both.  So, in this 
register, Living would have the whole 25 subgenders.  Again, I would 
mark these only on pronouns.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Everybody then has 12 new subgenders;
[+RAL], [+RL-A], [+AL-R], and [+LC-RA] would each split into 4 
subgenders; [+FM], [+F-M], [+M-F], [-FM]. 
(Note [+L-C] can only be Neuter.)

Note that the Husbandsmen's Register does not really multiply the 
total number of genders by 25.  Each style of husbandsmen adds the 
extra sub-sub-genders just to one kind of Living entity.

[+RL] Physicians have now 42 new subgenders;
instead of 4 kinds of [+RAL] they now have 25 kinds,
instead of 4 kinds of [+RL-A] they now have 25 kinds.

[+LC-R] Farmers likewise have 42 new subgenders;
25 (instead of 4) kinds of [+AL-R],
and 25 (instead of 4) kinds of [+LC-AR].

The other specialists use just 21 new subgenders each.
Hunters, Herdsmen, and Zoologists have 25 kinds of [+AL-R] instead of 
4; 
Foresters and Botanists have 25 kinds of [+LC-RA] instead of 4.

Alright, what does anyone think?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
*
BTW:
Slavonic genders are usually called Masculine (which contains all or 
most semantically male sex-differentiable nouns, as well as all non-
sex-differentiable Declension I nouns), Feminine (which contains most 
semantically female sex-differentiable nouns, as well as all non-sex-
differentiable Declension II nouns and regular Declension III nouns --
 semantically female Declension I nouns are "hybrid" gender), and 
Neuter (which contains all Declension IV nouns and most irregular 
Declension III nouns, except for one semantically-female irregular 
Declension III noun).

Tom H.C. in MI


--- In [log in to unmask], John Vertical <johnvertical@H...> 
wrote:
> >I have been reading Anna Siewierska's "Person", in which I came 
across a 
> >version of the Animacy Hierarchy that extends the lower end 
somewhat.
> 
> >The version (of the Animacy Hierarchy) in question is her (51)c. 
on her 
> >page 149, which looks like this:
> >
> >human > animate > inanimate > abstract
> 
> Well, what do you know! That's almost exactly the hierarchy /  
gender system 
> I'm currently using in Uwjge!
> Using your markup, hers are [+SA(L)C] [-S +AC] [-SA +C] [-SAC]. 
Mine are 
> approx. [+S] [-S +AC] [-SA +C] [-SAC].
> (I can't speak for her system, but myself, I find the 
living/unliving 
> disctinction not really useful enough to make it as basic as a 
gender.)
> 
> 
> >(Abstractions cannot speak new sentences, nor understand new 
sentences, nor 
> >learn languages --- so they can't be Sapient.)
> 
> I think some would position God or gods and other spiritual beings 
as [+S 
> +A].
> 
> 
> >(Abstractions cannot move from one place to another under their 
own motive 
> >power and control --- so they can't be Animate.)
> 
> This might be a little stretched ... but how about dreams? They're 
certainly 
> not concrete, and yet they can be quite animate.
> 
> 
> >Remember when we said that infectious diseases would be 
(nonsapient 
> >inanimate) Living?  (Because they can grow or multiply or --- this 
is the 
> >key one in the "infectious disease" case --- spread.)
> >
> >Well, an idea or organized group of ideas which happens to 
be "infectious" 
> >or "contagious" --- a "meme", in not-too-unmodern SF parlance --- 
could be 
> >considered "Living".  Of course, it would also have to be 
considered 
> >"Abstract".
> 
> A good analogy. I think people who haven't discovered germs yet 
would likely 
> consider real diseases "abstract" as well...
> 
> 
> >[Nonsapient] [Inanimate] Living Abstract (Memes, e.g. -- growing 
or 
> >spreading religions or schools of thought or movements in politics 
or art 
> >or litcrit or whatever)
> >
> >[Nonsapient] [Inanimate] Nonliving Abstract (really, really boring
> >ideas, for example)
> 
> Drawing the line between these two groups is not easy. Even the 
memeticists 
> themselves do not agree which ideas are memes and which (if any) 
are not. 
> Now, your examples are quite obvious ... but what about public 
opinion? 
> History? Widely accepted beliefs & theories - and not only "theory 
of 
> evolution" level, but also "grass is green"? With this disctinction 
in 
> place, the language would end up having at least some of your own 
beliefs 
> hard-coded.
> 
> 
> >I could abbreviate this, I think into a "bit vector"; for example,
> >
> >[+S +A +L +C] == Sapient    Animate   Living    Concrete
> >[+S +A -L +C] == Sapient    Animate   Nonliving Concrete
> >[+S -A -L +C] == Sapient    Inanimate Nonliving Concrete
> >[-S -A -L +C] == Nonsapient Inanimate Nonliving Concrete
> >[-S -A -L -C] == Nonsapient Inanimate Nonliving Abstract
> >
> >That requires only 13 characters to write the gender, instead of 
32 to 40.
> 
> >Thanks for writing,
> >
> >Tom H.C. in MI
> 
> 
> And if you group all the pluses and minuses together, and skip 
undefined 
> distinctions, as I've done in this message, you can save a few 
further 
> bytes.
> 
> John Vertical
> PS. I'll reply to your other messages as soon as I have the time... 
my 
> available internet time is currently relatively limited.
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Löydä etsimäsi - testaa MSN Search http://search.msn.fi

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August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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