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CONLANG  August 2005, Week 1

CONLANG August 2005, Week 1

Subject:

Re: THEORY: Non-nom Subj & Nom Obj -- Quirky OVS Word Order Or Quirky Case?

From:

tomhchappell <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 4 Aug 2005 18:24:50 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (215 lines)

Hello, Christopher, and everyone.

--- In [log in to unmask], Christopher Wright <dhasenan@G...> 
> wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 18:29:03 -0000, tomhchappell <tomhchappell@Y...> 
> wrote:

[HENRIK'S LAST NAME IS THEILING; SORRY I MIS-SPELLED IT]

> >Hello everyone, especially Tom Wier, Henrik Thieling, and Markus
> >Miekk-Oja.

Sorry, Henrik.  Theiling, not Thieling, right?  
I hope that didn't delay your answer, if you have one.

[IS THERE AN ANSWER FROM BASIC LINGUISTIC THEORY?]

> This is long and assumes some knowledge of syntax.
> If you want, I can
> probably create a brief explanation of the important stuff
> and toss it up on
> my webspace, but you probably know enough.
> And if not, Wikipedia should have
> enough.
> [snip]
> >Here's the thing; Why aren't these sentences in
> > an admittedly unusual
> >OVS word order, rather than having quirky cases?
> In order for that to happen, you'd need a few things to happen:
> 1. Nominative case would have to be assigned to a subject in
> its base position.
> 2. Either the base position for subjects would have to be below*
> (c-commanded by) the verb, or the verb would have to move
> above the base
> position for the subject.
> 3. The object would have to be assigned case from the verb as usual.

Thank you, Chris.

Does anyone have an explanation from, and/or in the terms of, what 
Matthew Dryer calls "'basic linguistic theory' (following R. M. W. 
Dixon)"? http://wings.buffalo.edu/soc-
sci/linguistics/people/faculty/dryer/dryer/blt

[POSSIBLE REASONS FOR A 'QUIRKY' OVS SENTENCE IN A SVO LANGUAGE]

I can think of two, besides just "allow[ing] [the] verb to decide 
the word order of [the] sentence at so basic a level", as Chris says.

One is a possible "animate arguments first" rule;
the other is the "stylistic" inversion Chris mentioned.

--ANIMACY HIERARCHY

In many languages the most "animate" argument 
has to be mentioned first, regardless of its thematic-role.  
I'm sorry I can't think of the name of the language 
or of the paper I saw it in or of the author of the paper; 
but: in some North Amerind language, 
hawks are more animate than foxes, so if a fox catches a hawk, 
the hawk has to be mentioned first 
even though it's the patient and the fox is the agent.

So in a "My boss(DAT) Cadillacs(NOM) lician" type sentence, 
we would be mentioning my boss first, 
because he is more animate than the Cadillac.  
(Of course you wouldn't say that if you ever met my boss, 
unless you met him near his Cadillac.)

> [snip]
> It's possible--compare it to stylistic inversion.
> It would have to be
> optional, though--
> no theory that I know of allows a verb to decide the word
> order of a sentence at so basic a level.
> So you could simply say 'If it's
> optional,
> it's OVS surface word order from stylistic inversion; otherwise,
> it's quirky case.'
> 
> There's more to it than that. Check the theta roles:
> is the first noun
> phrase the agent or experiencer in a regular,
> unemphasized sentence? If so,
> then it's extremely likely to be quirky case.
> Otherwise, it's more likely to
> be stylistic inversion or semantic case
> (semantic case is present before we
> even begin to think about syntax,
> so it can pretty much bypass this discussion).

--STYLISTIC INVERSION

The English switch from SOV to SVO was brought about partly by a 
stylistic preference for using an alternate SVO word order in certain 
circumstances.
Among the conditioning variables were;
*Is or is not the clause the last in a series of co-ordinately 
conjoined clauses?
*Is the clause a main clause or a sub-ordinate clause? 
http://www.tutorpal.com/Our_English/middle_english/mem.html
has this to say :
"clauses: trend toward modern word order, 
SVO in affirmative independent clauses; 
SOV when object was pronoun, in dependent clauses, with compound 
tenses; 
VSO in questions and imperatives; 
OSV/OVS emphasizing direct object or complement; 
required subject, use of dummy subjects there and it"

> [snip]
> Why should you care which it is?
> Well, stylistic inversion usually involves
> moving the verb higher than the subject,
> then moving the object higher than
> the verb;

a. I didn't know that!
b. Why does all stylistic inversion have to have both those steps, 
and done in just that order?

> and it's always optional (or forbidden, but never required).

This is the only feature of Stylistic Inversion 
that I'm pretty sure doesn't apply 
to the Icelandic and German "like" examples in Sigurdsson's paper.  
I don't know those languages well enough, 
but I got the impression those word-orders were required, 
not optional.

> This alters the positions of modifiers
> (adverbs and adverbial prepositional phrases).

I think the examples I was asking about would obey 
this rule of Stylistic Inversion, if that is what they are.

> Also, if you have an auxiliary or modal 'verb', that will be moved
> instead of the content verb.

AFAIK the examples I was asking about are not disqualified from being
Stylistic Inversion by this rule, either.

> This all works for SVO languages.
> OVS languages are different;
> I haven't looked into them much,
> but either they're
> SOV languages that move the predicate
> (so you get indirect objects before the verb),
> or they're
> SOV/SVO languages that move the verb up and then the object
> (so it's possible to have indirect objects after the subject).

I could interpret what you're saying as:
"Native L1-speakers of OVS languages 
actually compose their utterances as SOV or SVO in their heads, 
then invert most of them before saying them out loud".
If that's so, speaking an OVS language must be a lot of effort,
even for a native speaker.
No wonder they're so rare.

On the other hand, that's probably not what you meant.
In which case, what did you mean?

I haven't looked at any OVS or OSV languages either.
All I know about them is "they are about as rare as hen's teeth".
I don't even know if any Object-First languages have Quirky Case.
Does anyone on the list know?

[NOTE:  I was really asking for natlangs; but, if tlHiNgaan has 
quirky case, feel free to mention it.]

[REANALYSIS OF "LICIAN"'S ARGUMENT-FRAME TO "LIKE"'S]

In http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~garrett/DIGS2004.pdf
"Syntactic Change as Language Change" 
Andrew Garrett says among other things:

"As he [David Lightfoot] observes 
here [1988, "Syntactic Change", "The Cambridge Linguistic Survey", 
ed by Frederick Newmeyer, Vol 1] and elsewhere, 
an essential part of the Jespersen account is that 
verbs such as /like/ [/lician/] must have been used in OVS sentences 
often enough to allow reanalysis.
An example of the relevant type is in (2).
(2) ac  gode     ne licode na heora geleafleast   ...
    But God(DAT) did not like their unbelief(NOM) ...
(AEHom 21.68)"

Garrett also mentions Jespersen's idea that 
human arguments would be likely to be 
mentioned before inanimate arguments, 
thus accounting for the more frequent use of 
the variant OVS word-order with a verb such as "lician" 
than verbs such as "kill", "see", or "love".
He suggests that 
when English's case system got restricted to pronouns, 
and English's word-order got changed to SVO 
and became pretty strict about it, 
"lician"'s argument-structure was re-analyzed.

> [snip]

I ran out of time to talk about the 
Government-and-Binding and Minimalist-Program
takes on this.
I'm not sure I would have understood them anyway.

But, at any rate, it looks like Andrew Garrett may be 
a person who might have asked this sort of question before; 
or, perhaps, Cynthia Allen or another one of his sources has.

Thank you.

Tom H.C. in MI

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June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
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August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
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June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
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May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 3
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
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February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
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January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
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December 2003, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
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September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
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December 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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