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CONLANG  August 2005, Week 2

CONLANG August 2005, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Mixed person plurals: gender & the (in/ex)clusive distinction; !Ora

From:

tomhchappell <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 11 Aug 2005 20:37:13 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (192 lines)

Hi, Remi, and thanks for writing back.

--- In [log in to unmask], Remi Villatel <maxilys@T...> wrote:
> tomhchappell wrote:
> > [snip] 
>
> [snip]
>
> In an environment with various alien species and different level of 
> intelligence for the artificial life forms, what you wrote
> takes all its  meaning.
> 

The comment below is the kind of comment I was asking to get from you.

> However, I maintain what I wrote: Such a complicate system can only 
> disappear. Not totally but partially through simplification.

Well, in a sense, every feature of every language is vulnerable to 
diachronic simplification and erosion; most distinctions are "doomed" 
to disappear, unless something happens to "save" them.

But it can take centuries or millenia.  
Consider the Niger-Kordofanian and Bantu languages with their 20+
noun-class systems.  
Then, there are classifier-word languages, some of which have even 
more noun-classes than the Bantu languages, and some of which require 
verbs to agree with these.
It seems that in extant human languages, at least, the maximum number 
of "genders" is just under 30, if it needn't be marked on the noun, 
or just over 20, if it must be marked on the noun.
And these systems have been on-going for at least 800 years.

> [snip]
>
> Or more simply, imagine two species which don't met often,
> during such meeting they realize they don't use the same genders
> to speak of similar things, so they start using only the 
> most essential genders to make themselves clear.

It seems something like that happened when Danes met Anglo-Saxons in
Medieval England.  I'm not sure how big a role "gender" played in it,
but Middle English was a lot simpler than Old English partly because
certain distinctions, like dual number, were indicated differently in
these otherwise very similar Germanic languages.

At the same time, complexity was introduced.  If I understood it, and 
recall correctly, our current verb "to be" is made up out of pieces 
of two Anglo-Saxon verbs (a "be" verb and a "wax" verb) and a Danish 
verb ("are" and "am").

(WARNING: next paragraph contains over-the-top generalizations to 
which the author does not entirely subscribe.)

Any process which regularizes also introduces irregularity.
Any process which simplifies also introduces new complexity.
Hegel's "every thesis contains its own antithesis" couldn't ask for
better illustrations than language change.

> [snip]
> Well, this is only a theory

Yeah, but I liked it.

> since a multi-species environment is 
> something we haven't encountered yet.
> 
> 	[---CUT---]
> 
> > A pet or a baby is a Sentient Animate Non-Rational entity.
> 
> Ouch! Some mothers may skin you alive if you don't treat their baby 
as 
> if it were an entire person, i.e. with the genders that apply to a 
full 
> adult.
> Only English allows you to (linguistically) treat a baby as if it 
> were an animal.

I disagree with the "only English" part.
Surely there are many languages that don't make it easy to speak of 
babies' similarities to animals rather than to adult humans; but they 
don't consist of "all languages but English". 

Anyway, that linguist who introduced the term wasn't thinking of 
English when he did so; it was some other language that made that 
spot on the Animacy Hierarchy between Human and Animate.

However, according to Corbett, you are right in thinking that most 
languages do not need any such space.  He decided not to use 
the "rational" separation as part of his cross-linguistic, universal 
Animacy Hierarchy; he decided that only a few languages had more than 
a passing use for a category of Humans who would outrank Non-Human 
Animates, but be outranked by Talking Humans.

(The "kin to me" or "kin to one of us" or "belonging to our tribe"
distinction, however, Corbett felt is useful enough cross-
linguistically to be included in the Hierarchy above "Humans in 
general".)

BTW I wish I could think of the professional linguist who first 
published the "Rational" distinction.  I'm sure it's in one of 
Corbett's books, either "Number" or "Gender".  But I don't have those 
books.  Can someone who does, look up the reference?

> [snip]
> 	[---CUT---]
> > "Rational" as first used by the first publishing professional 
> > linguist to insert it into the Animacy Hierarchy was to 
distinguish 
> > humans who could talk (Rational Humans) from humans who could not 
> > talk (Non-Rational Humans, still higher in the Hierarchy than Non-
> > Human Animates).  My use of the term is inspired by that use; but 
the 
> > concept, for which I appropriated the term, is inspired by the 
> > Antique Roman notion of "talking tool".
> 
> My Rational/Irrational gender comes from this list, well, only the 
name. 
> When I create the pronouns I wanted to separate the persons from 
the 
> objects, or in other words, to have the "it" we don't have in 
French. 
> Since I didn't have to worry about the male/female distinction for 
the 
> Shaqueans, I created the Personal/Objective gender. I just decided 
to 
> find a better name the first time I wrote "Personal personal 
pronoun". <g>
> 

I think I sympathize.

> 	[---CUT---]
> I already have a gender that applies to dual and plural 3rd 
pronouns. 
> It's high time to apply it to the 2nd pronouns.

Hope I helped.

> 
> Be the way, please, don't make me laugh with the "Universals". When 
it 
> comes to alien languages, these Universals are just a checklist of 
what 
> to violate.

That makes them very useful in conlanging.

> 	[---CUT---]
> > Imagine this;  I have a voice-input-capable computer.  In it I 
have 
> > a "Window" open.  I want the window from the room to the outside 
to 
> > be closed.  I say to my room-mate, "Would you-RATIONAL-
FREEANIMATE 
> > please close the window?"  My room-mate knows it's her I'm 
speaking 
> > to because of all the pragmatic contextual devices you mention 
> > below.  My computer knows I am not speaking to it because of the 
form 
> > of 2nd person pronouon I used.
> 
> In this case, with voice-recognition, things get very different but 
your 
> post didn't mention the level of technology in your conculture. 
Now, I'm 
> thinking about inserting a gender to my 2nd personal pronouns. With 
that 
> many artificial life forms cluttering the shaquean space, that may 
be 
> handy. Your example is very convincing.

I'm glad I helped, if I did.
I hadn't thought about "a lot of A.L.F.s in Shaquiean space".
I guess I need to re-read what you've written about it.

> 
> I'm about to remove the plural from Shaquelingua, gendered 2nd 
pronouns 
> could fill the gap... or add a new bump!
> 
> 	[---CUT---]

Thanks for writing, Remi.
I look forward to hearing from you again.

I hope someone else also reads this, and answers the questions 
neither of us could answer.

Tom H.C. in MI

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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
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June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 3
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March 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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February 2001, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 5
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