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AUXLANG  August 2005, Week 3

AUXLANG August 2005, Week 3

Subject:

Re: World Language.

From:

Antony Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 20 Aug 2005 09:08:27 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (167 lines)

“Cousin Thomas” wrote:

> You also might enjoy looking into LangX -- the global
> pig-din (whoops, I mean pidgin) by Anthony Alexander
> and Company (no relation to yours truly, except in
> my tiny little fantasy world.)

Thanks for the trailer, C Thom, since we are also discussing pigs and movies. However, I remain 
the sole entity behind LangX (http://langx.org), with no Company as yet. 

And yes, Jim, whether it is an embedded movie memory or a valid scientific hypothesis your 
universal grunt-protolanguage certainly sounds like the “global pigdin” someone once accused me 
of creating.

> This (serial grunting) is the language of the TRIBE and is very important to the tribe, so 
> important that OUR brain made a special part, on the brain-stem, central within the brain - it 
> communicates with the left & right hemisheres - but it stands alone, independent of any other 
> part. Its sole purpose is to learn ONE language, the SPOKEN language of the tribe. [Writing came 
> much, much later - in fact very recently - and is handled by the right hemisphere of the brain].

I’d agree that spoken language precedes written. We have only to look at child language 
acquisition, or linguistic development within societies, to see that this order always obtains. There 
is also evidence that the human brain is optimally designed for a single language. See for instance 
the following book review:

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/BookReviewTypeDetail/assetid/15576

But as for your other assertion, that language originates from the brain-stem, I am as agnostic 
about this as about your grunting protolanguage. It’s certainly an interesting idea. Do you have 
any scientific evidence to support it? 

> Now how many of you like to do anagrams in your own language. Anagrams are jumbled up 
> letters [ I'm NOT talking down to anyone here - If you understand about anagrams just shout 
> YES, and I'll skip this bit. Don't hear anything], that you must make a proper word or phrase 
> from - have you thought what operations you make to achieve the correct result. Well you use 
> your right hemisphere the most (however some say it the left hemisphere since it controls logic 
> and reason - I disagree) and as you manipulate the letters you make "silent sounds" of the letter 
> groups and suddenly a combination of letters "leap-of-the-page OR similar in you mind(clever 
> dick). This is that specal-brain-part that recognised the "silent-sound".
> Now do another anagram in a learnt language and you will see the difference for yourself - it 
> takes much longer to do.

I think you’re right. Nobody ever knows their second language as well as their mother tongue - 
their principal link to communicable knowledge - unless their second language develops into their 
mother tongue (as sometimes happens). I’d bet even Cousin Thomas is better at Scrabble in 
English than in German (against equivalent opposition).

> The ILC word set, I think (You can say different, because at the end of the ulimate discussion, 
> and if its still a viable proposition YOU have the job of creating it - I'm NOT qualified!), should 
> be Esperanto based, since I like the way words are made-up. Dont forget this is a SPOKEN 
> language NOT a written one and remember speech came first in our evolution, written words
> next and LAST of all grammer. Do not hold-up speaking this language just becasue you have 
> not yet learnt to write it down or analize it.It's the grammatical accuracy that is stopping 
> Esperanto & Ido from becoming a World language.

So your ILC is a kind of prelanguage (or metalanguage) of pre-vocalised intellectual concpts, right? 
If so I'd go along with that, on the presumption that you are restricting your ILC to concepts 
common to all or most languages.

But you can’t have it both ways with Esperanto. If your language is Esperanto-based you get the 
“grammatical accuracy” as well as the word-formation. I happen to agree with you about the 
“grammatical accuracy”: i.e. that Esperanto grammar with its inbuilt word classes is over-complex 
for an entry-level IAL. 

Efficient word-formation is by no means exclusive to Esperanto - look at the Chinese system, for 
instance. 


Jim Henry replied:

> Are you claiming it's impossible to learn to really think
> in another language?  Or that it's so difficult in 
> principle that an IAL should not bother to try being 
> thinkable-in?  Or what?  I don't understand your 
> argument.

It’s a good question - may I attempt an answer?

Since we’re hard-wired to learn one language rather than two or more (as an increasing amount of 
scientific evidence confirms), primary creative impetus goes into our mother-tongue. How then 
can a “universal mother tongue” - a single world language - be established? Answer: only on the 
basis of common linguistic universals, according to the established progression in child language 
acquisition and in the historic development of successful new languages (via the contact language 
~ pidgin ~ creole route). Thus we discover that shared linguistic universals might best proceed 
through common phonemes, an international core vocabulary and agreed grammatical rules.

A scientific approach would therefore deconstructs these developments, on a comparative basis, 
to see which linguistic elements were most efficient. 

By this process, which is already taking place - albeit still largely unconscious of the end result - 
an optimal IAL such as people would later wish to use as their primary language or mother tongue 
might come into existence. 

But if the resulting IAL were politicised in any way it wouldn’t be universally accepted, and for 
essentially the same reason that English isn’t universally accepted.

However, English might be temporarily employed as a base language or substrate, according to 
historic precedent and contemporary influence. The new IAL (at one stage a “global pidgin”) might 
be likened to an airplane taking off from the deck of the aircraft carrier “International English” in 
international waters.

> This plan assumes that any two languages have
> a one-to-one correspondence in both word meanings
> and grammar.  But no two languages do.

Why does it have to be all or nothing? There is always a partial correspondence. For instance, most 
of a defined complement of 5 vowels and 20 consonants is included in the phonology of most 
languages, and most languages contain words for those tangible objects which are common to 
most cultures. True, the correspondence is far from perfect, but enough to make a start. And as a 
universal culture develops the common language should follow.

>> like the way words are made-up. Dont forget this is a SPOKEN language NOT a
>> written one and remember speech came first in our evolution, written words
>> next and LAST of all grammer. Do not hold-up speaking this language just

> How can you know that grammar came later than speech?
> It certainly preceded writing, anyway.  (Scientific
> analysis of grammar came later than writing, of course;
> but every human language already had its own 
> unique grammar before a writing system was developed
> for it.)

In the normal process of child language development grammar comes later than speech (if 
“speech” means simply “the utterance of words”); also, in cultural linguistic development the 
pidgin phase (words elaborated by grammar) comes after the contact language phase (just words). 
However, I’d agree with Jim H that grammar precedes writing. Until the past couple of centuries 
most of the world’s languages had no script and were never written down, but they did have 
developed grammars. (Christian missionaries were instrumental in most of these formerly purely 
oral languages being given a Latin script.)

> Isolated words without any grammar to show how they
> relate to each other are very limited in how much
> and how complex meaning they can convey.
> It seems a plausible speculation that the earliest humans 
> had individual words of some kind before they 
> had true language (which includes grammar),
> but I don't see you presenting any evidence for
> this speculation; nor do I see why we should
> now use that  more limited form of pre-linguistic
> communication.

Yes, but much - probably most - communication isn’t of such a high order of significance that it 
must be delivered via a complex grammar; very often merely a single word can be very useful. 
Many years ago, travelling in Central America and knowing hardly any Spanish, I found that the 
single word “comeda” would elicit directions to a simple establishment serving steak, frijoles and 
rice. Contact languages have arisen for a similar practical reason - in real life situations the 
context provides all or most of the grammar anyway. And it’s hardly an unsupported speculation 
that simple words precede grammatically elaborated language: every contact language ~ pidgin ~ 
creole development has followed this route, as has every child learning its mother tongue.

Moreover, it’s not a case of going back to “pre-linguistic communication” - indeed, it cannot be, 
since everyone will continue to use their own sophisticated and highly-developed mother tongue 
as the IAL is developing. The point is that the IAL must begin at the beginning - and for essentially 
the same reason that the average child doesn’t start off by uttering complex sentences. 

As I have often stated on this forum before, the IAL will be for the masses in every country, and 
not just for natural linguists or people of above-average intelligence. It follows from this that 
Esperanto and all the other better-known IALs on offer (including Glosa, even) are essentailly Level 
2 languages (or higher), in terms of required cognitive development. Yes, we need these 
languages and all the ideas they offer, but we also require an entry-level language and a way of 
coordinating and harmonising the eliding registers up the hierarchy. 

As PT Barnum is supposed to have said: "Nobody ever lost money by underestimating the 
intelligence of the public." 

Antony Alexander        http://langx.org, 

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