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AUXLANG  August 2005, Week 3

AUXLANG August 2005, Week 3

Subject:

Re: World Language

From:

Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:20:53 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (268 lines)

On 8/20/05, Jim Vyse <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Jim Henry (19/8/05) wrote

> TRUE; but I was pointing out the RELATIVE natural speed difference - If you
> practice at anything, 
> you must eventually get quicker and better at it.

Including thinking in a language you didn't grow up
speaking.

> >Are you claiming it's impossible to learn to really think
> in another language?  Or that it's so difficult in 
> principle that an IAL should not bother to try being 
> thinkable-in?  Or what?  I don't understand your 
> argument

> No, its not impossible - but for left-hemisphere people( Jim V included) its
> very difficult. 

Granted, learning another language as an adult
tends to be difficult and take a large investment 
of time.  This is true even for constructed languages
designed to be easy -- though they generally
take less time and effort than the typical 
naturally evolved language, it's still hard for
someone who starts as an adult.  But if you're 
dreaming big about a language with >50% of the 
world's population speaking it, why not dream bigger
and suppose that you can teach it to children
all over?  You could still start with a contact 
language and let pidginization and creolization
happen by itself, but I'm not sure there would be
a real advantage to that scheme (in terms of the 
end product, I mean; it may be more feasible
than introducing a conlang into half the world's 
elementary schools).

> R_hemisphere (probably You) cannot understand our difficulty - its so easy
> for you (relatively 
> speaking). 

What evidence do you base this on?

>Incidentally, using yet another cop_out, more than 90% of the
> population are L_hemisphere 
> dominant!

Including me, if right-handedness is any indication of
left-hemispheric dominance.

> > My listener, hears groups of ILC words and that special-brain-part
> > transforms the word-order to suit HIS TRIBEs' speech patterns and
> > comprehension is complete.
>  
> This plan assumes that any two languages have
> a one-to-one correspondence in both word meanings
> and grammar.  But no two languages do.
> >>
>  
> I think ( but dont know) that using small/single concepts should be no
> problem.

No matter how ideally logical/neutral your choice of 
concepts to pick or make words for is, _some_
people -- a lot, I expect -- will have to learn to associate 
more than one word in your ILC with one word 
in their native language, and one word in your ILC 
with several different words in their native language.
That is, they would really have to learn new
concepts and not just a mapping of ILC words
to native-language words, as you
suggested  in your earlier mail.

> All I can say is:- "I STILL DONT KNOW GRAMMAR" - yet I can speak,
> sort_of_write, and 
> communicate! 

The fact that you can speak and write English is 
proof enough that you do know English grammar --
not the older theories about English grammar that are
taught in schools or textbooks, maybe, or the 
more complex theories that are being described 
by linguists now, but the actual grammar as 
it's found in one form or another in the brain
of every fluent speaker of English (native 
speaker or not).

>> this speculation; nor do I see why we should
>> now use that  more limited form of pre-linguistic
>> communication.

> I am only interested in getting them to START talking however limited that
> might be! Once they/you 
> start, the people will automatically modify it to make it better suited to
> THEIR needs.
> 
> Any spoken language EVOLVES and I'm hoping that it will evolve rapidly
> with/without the help of 
> linguists - better with you but without any hinderances.

I am sure that, if you managed to introduce such a 
contact language, it would undergo pidginization
and creolization over a couple of generations if 
it lasted long enough.  The question is whether 
the process and results would be more effective 
or better than the usually proposed method of 
introducing a conlang-IAL with an already
regularized grammar; or whether, indeed,
the method you proposed (and the similar, 
more rigorously defined method that
Anthony Alexander proposes, as far as I 
understand him) is mutually exclusive with
the traditional method advoted by
speakers and promoters of Esperanto,
Ido, Interlingua, etc.  That is, I don't
see a subset of the most common/useful
words from some constructed IAL could
not be promoted as a contact language
for those who don't have time/energy 
to learn the language as a whole.


On 8/20/05, Jim Vyse <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hello Thomas, you wrote(19/8/05):-

> > "You've lost the plot"! Before you can grammatically
> > analyse a language you must first have one.
>  
> I'm not sure what you mean by this, or how it relates
> to "that very subject" which we discussed before.
> >>
>  
> My opinion of a working language is one that has a greater than 50% 
>  
> following, not less than 1%.(Jim H. tells me that is less
> than 6 million)

So, if I can reinterpret what you said at first
based on what you've said since -- did you mean
that there's no sense in rigorously defining
your IAL's grammar until it has already
been adopted by 3 billion people?
In other words, wait for pidginization 
and creolization to happen, and then analyze 
the result by the usual methods of field linguistics
rather than define the grammar ahead of time?

That kind of makes sense.  In fact, it's how
the better high-level works on Esperanto 
are written; they pay attention to actual
usage, rather than how the language was
defined in Dr. Zamenhof's documents.
As you said above, any language in
use will evolve; this is certainly true of
Esperanto and I suspect it is true of
the other constructed IALs that 
I don't know so well.


> I'm trying to get away from thinking in an artificial language and 
> concentrate on own_language thinking.I'll not be shifted from this - its the
> whole_basis of my argument.I'm a L_hemisphere dweller and any language is 
> very difficult for me to learn AND for the 90% of others like me.

Have you heard of the "Key to Esperanto" booklets?
They're stilll used to some extent.  The idea
was much as you suggest -- a short 
lexicon and grammar in a booklet that would
supposedly let you read and write basic Esperanto
by treating it as a code for your native language.
It sort of worked, but was very slow and inconvenient.

I can see using such an encoding as a makeshift
when necessary on occasion; but how you
can treat it as an ideal to aim at is beyond me.
I can't see 3 billion people using such a 
cumbersome code regularly; if they did,
they would learn to think in it and it wouldn't
be a code anymore.

<stuff about grunting and squirrels snipped>


Thomas A wrote:
> While I do not consider myself to be an expert on
> brain structures, I believe you are mistaken here.
.....
James V replied:
> However, I_know_STUFF that to my knowledge has not been written down 
>  
> anywhere.[I'm ducking any further response for now]

Everyone knows things that others don't.  The 
question is, is a particular bit of personal knowledge 
relevant to a discussion like this? -- and if you can't 
share information, how can it affect what we think?


  
> Agreed, anything practiced makes you faster and more accurate - well mostly 
>  
> everything in the physical_world.

Mental skills too; spiritual skills as well,
if you recognize them as distinct from
mental.


> At any rate, what you seem to be suggesting (in part
> of your message which I am not quoting) is generally
> known as "relexification" (assuming I understand
> everything correctly.>
>  
> EXACTLY

The problem is, a relexification of
one language will be obvious and relatively
easy for speakers of that language, but
non-obvious and tricky for speakers of 
any other. 


> > It's the grammatical accuracy that is stopping
> > Esperanto & Ido from becoming a World language.
>  
> I'd love to hear more about this point.
> >>
>  
> I meant its stopping it from expanding in the run_away_mode. Similar to a 
> chain reaction without the BOOM.

Yes, but I don't think you ever explained 
very clearly what you meant by 
"grammatical accuracy" and why it is a
hindrance.  I might guess, based on other
things you've said, that you meant
something like "grammatical complexity";
that's not the same thing, but I can see
why you think it might be a hindrance.
Most of the more recent conlang-IALs
have simpler grammar than Esperanto,
Ido or Interlingua - Vorlin, Ceqli, Konya, 
SASXSEK, etc.  They still have grammar, 
though.  Without grammar of some kind,
you can't tell how words relate to each
other, and can't tell a question from a statement
or command.

> Now some written languages are brilliant:- ATLAS(for Automatic Test   
> Equipment),JAVA,PASCAL etc - but they logical and only "talk" to machines (
> computers) not people.

What does this have to do with anything?
Esperanto, like English, Chinese, Arabic, etc., 
is primarily a spoken language with a secondary 
written form.  (I can't speak for Interlingua, though 
I would guess it's the same.)  Thomas's children
and other native speakers acquire Esperanto as 
a spoken language years before learning
to read and write it.

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/review/log.htm
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang.htm
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/esp.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field

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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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