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AUXLANG  August 2005, Week 3

AUXLANG August 2005, Week 3

Subject:

Re: World Language.

From:

Antony Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 21 Aug 2005 12:20:08 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (111 lines)

"Cousin Thomas" wrote:

> I also recall reading a study about
> the parts of the bilingual brain which are active
> when processing language.  If it's an early bilingual,
> both languages are processed in the "language center."
> A late bilingual will process the first language in
> the language center, but the second language
> elsewhere.  I am sorry that I do not have a reference
> for you.

That’s very interesting. However, I would doubt whether both languages are exactly equivalent, 
even in the case of the early bilingual. I suspect that the dominant one (mother tongue) would 
tend to provide the basic grammatical structure, with the other tending to be relexified.

>> Nobody ever knows their second language as well as
>> their mother tongue - their principal link to
>> communicable knowledge - unless their second
>> language develops into their mother tongue (as
>> sometimes happens). I’d bet even Cousin Thomas
>> is better at Scrabble in English than in German
>> (against equivalent opposition).

> This is an oversimplification.  Using a language is
> not just one skill.  It is a diverse set of skills.
> It is not uncommon that I will confront something
> which I know better in Esperanto than in English.
> (Granted, it is far more common the other way around.)

Agreed - it’s a generalisation (or oversimplification, if you prefer) - a statement of comparative 
rather than absolute knowledge or utility. I didn’t say that the mother tongue should be used 
exclusively. Every one of them has limitations - so that some things may be said more elegantly 
and succinctly in another language. The day of a single fully-comprehensive universal mother 
tongue (for the entire human race on Earth) which can express every possible thought with 
matchless euphony and efficiency (so that no auxiliary languages are necessary) is still a long way 
off (probably several centuries at least).

> A lost tourist really wants to know whether he's
> supposed to take the road behind the tree and not
> the road the tree is behind.  (To adapt an example,
> from Pinker, I believe.)  Grammar matters.

Grammar increases in importance as the situation gets more theoretical and abstract. Grammar 
sets the bearings and places time/space markers in a simulacrum of reality, such as a scene 
described (or a story related) second-hand. But when one is actually in the scene or story, as it is 
happening, the real-life context provides most of the grammar. Higher-order potentially 
ambiguous grammar, as in your example, is never an actual issue.


Kjell R wrote, in response to Jim V:

>> i AM english, i THINK-SPEAK english, but I say an equivalent ILC word.
>>  
>>                                  ILC = International Language Code.

> This is not how it logically works. When I now am writing in English I 
> don't think in Swedish, I think in what I imagine to be English. If I 
> were to translate every sentence from Swedish into English I would not 
> be ready til monday! Learning a language is just about that, 
> authomatizing (if that is the right word) the process of handling 
> lexicon and grammar in the language you leran. Imagine that you have to 
> read a text in a language that you don't know at all. Then you have to 
> get a dictionary and a grammar book in order to understand - and you 
> will most probably try to find a person who can translate the text for 
> you.

Jim V - I endorse the usefulness of the ILC concept precisely because I don’t believe thinking (cf 
imagination) takes place in English, even though it may be immediately translated into English (or 
another language). The world of words is not the same as the realm of thoughts. The map is not 
the territory. However, this is still a minority viewpoint (I’d be surprised if you accepted it), so I 
would expect the new IAL to come via a familiar base language such as English (that will allow 
people to “continue thinking”) - as has happened in the past when pidgins have been instituted.

Kjell - Likewise, I would say that you are simply thinking (as a human being on Planet Earth), and 
then translating the thought into a national language (which happens to be English) - the only 
difference being that in Swedish you can effect the translation immediately and unconsciously, as 
befits the embedded mother tongue, whereas English requires a bit more effort. 

>> My listener, hears groups of ILC words and that special-brain-part 
>> transforms the word-order to suit HIS TRIBEs' speech patterns and 
>> comprehension is complete.
>> The reverse is true when he responds to me. If an ambiguity or 
>> mis-communication happens then the onus is with the speaker to re-phrase.

If by ILC words you mean a kind of spiritual intermediary process relating to “ideal forms” then I’m 
in full agreement.

And yes, I am indeed a Platonist (with reservations). I consider the following a useful summary (it 
also happens to mention squirrels):

http://www.fred.net/tzaka/plato1.html

Consequently it would be desirable (IMHO) if the international core vocabulary corresponded as 
closely as possible to these ideal forms. Several years ago, in “LangX Vocabulary”: 

http://bahai-library.com/books/lango/lang04.html#R 

I offered the following quote from  Plato's dialogue “Cratylus” towards this end:

“.....rho is a sign of motion, found in words such as "tremor, tremble, strike, crush, bruise, tremble 
and whirl" because it is linked to the physical activity of pronunciation. According to Socrates, the 
tongue was "most agitated and least at rest in the pronunciation of this letter" and therefore it was 
originally used to express motion. Aspirated phonemes requiring expenditure of breath, likewise 
find themselves in windy, tempestuous words such as "shivering, seething, shock and shaking". 
Lamda, with its liquid smoothness produced by the slipping of the tongue, is found in words like 
"slip, level, floor, flood, sleek" (when combined with another syllable it denotes easy but repetitive 
motion as in "handle, swivel, anvil, paddle"); gamma,  in which the tongue is detained, combines 
with lamda to express the notion of stickiness, as in "glue, glutinous, glucose".”

Antony Alexander

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