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AUXLANG  August 2005, Week 3

AUXLANG August 2005, Week 3

Subject:

Re: World Language.

From:

Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:15:02 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (162 lines)

On 8/21/05, Antony Alexander <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> "Cousin Thomas" wrote:

> That's very interesting. However, I would doubt whether both languages are exactly equivalent,
> even in the case of the early bilingual. I suspect that the dominant one (mother tongue) would
> tend to provide the basic grammatical structure, with the other tending to be relexified.

I have seen no evidence of this in any of the things
I've read by and about natively bilingual people.
What evidence do you have for your suspicion 
that all or most natively bilingual people are truly
fluent in only one of their native languages?

> exclusively. Every one of them has limitations - so that some things may be said more elegantly
> and succinctly in another language. The day of a single fully-comprehensive universal mother
> tongue (for the entire human race on Earth) which can express every possible thought with
> matchless euphony and efficiency (so that no auxiliary languages are necessary) is still a long way
> off (probably several centuries at least).

I'm not sure such a language is even possible.
Every feature a language might have involves 
trade-offs; for instance, just to take two 
properties you mentioned, I suspect that euphony
and efficiency can't be both maximized at the same
time.  (Take a look at Ithkuil (very efficient, and, I suspect,
often non-euphonious), for instance, or Toki Pona 
(very euphonious and fairly inefficient for expressing
most complex concepts).)

I suspect that it is possible for a constructed language
to improve on every existing natural or constructed
language in _some ways_ --- but not in all ways at
once.  Of course, decades or centuries more
of experimentation with conlangs -- preferably
by teams of people with diverse linguistic 
knowledge, not just by individuals working mostly
alone -- will be necessary to prove eithery you
or me right.

> > A lost tourist really wants to know whether he's
> > supposed to take the road behind the tree and not
> > the road the tree is behind.  (To adapt an example,
> > from Pinker, I believe.)  Grammar matters.
> 
> Grammar increases in importance as the situation gets more theoretical and abstract. Grammar
> sets the bearings and places time/space markers in a simulacrum of reality, such as a scene
> described (or a story related) second-hand. But when one is actually in the scene or story, as it is
> happening, the real-life context provides most of the grammar. Higher-order potentially
> ambiguous grammar, as in your example, is never an actual issue.

I think it would be an issue, if you were asking for
directions and the tree/road situation was not in
sight so pointing would not disambiguate.

And to take a more fundamental example, it
seems that some kind of grammar is necessary
to distinguish statements, commands and questions.
Relying on tone or stress to distinguish them 
is a kind of grammar, just like word order or 
affixes or separate particles to indicate mode.

> Kjell R wrote, in response to Jim V:
> > This is not how it logically works. When I now am writing in English I
> > don't think in Swedish, I think in what I imagine to be English. If I
> > were to translate every sentence from Swedish into English 

> Jim V - I endorse the usefulness of the ILC concept precisely because I don't believe thinking (cf
> imagination) takes place in English, even though it may be immediately translated into English (or
> another language). The world of words is not the same as the realm of thoughts. The map is not

I agree that not all thought consists of words
in some language or other -- much visual and mathematical
imagination is nonverbal at least for some people --
but for many people, some or most thought is 
in a language, usually though not always (one of)
one's native language(s).  You may be exceptional
in thinking more visually and less verbally
than most people, and generalizing this (perhaps
by the influence of Platonism) to say other people
are _really_ thinking nonverbally and instantly
translating their thoughts into their native language
or some other language they're pretty fluent in.

But perhaps we had better avoid this argument;
I don't see how we could prove anything about
how people in general think by saying things
about how we perceive ourselves to think.
This is only partially accessible to introspection,
and not at all accessible to MRI scans, I reckon.

> Kjell - Likewise, I would say that you are simply thinking (as a human being on Planet Earth), and
> then translating the thought into a national language (which happens to be English) - the only
> difference being that in Swedish you can effect the translation immediately and unconsciously, as
> befits the embedded mother tongue, whereas English requires a bit more effort.

My spontaneous thinking happens mostly in 
English but fairly often in Esperanto,
occasionally in French, sometimes in gjax-zym-byn.  
With a slight effort I can deliberately 
switch thought-languages;
it doesn't take much effort to start
thinking in Esperanto, but rather more to 
think for very long in gjax-zym-byn.
I find that when I'm not making an effort
to think in a particular language,
my internal mental dialogue will switch
languages fairly often anyway.

The thing that makes me regard your
hypothesis with suspcicion is, that sometimes
my thinking will get stuck and switching languages
will unstick it.  (This happens most often
when I run into an expressivity limitation 
when thinking in gjax-zym-byn (due to the language's
incompleteness) or French (due to my lack of fluency)
but it sometimes happens with English, too;
switching from Esperanto to English will sometimes
get my thinking out of a rut and let me continue
a train of thought that's gotten stalled.
That makes me think that language is 
(at least fairly often, at least for some people) the 
actual means of thought and not merely an 
epiphenomenon.

> I offered the following quote from  Plato's dialogue "Cratylus" towards this end:
> 
> ".....rho is a sign of motion, found in words such as "tremor, tremble, strike, crush, bruise, tremble
> and whirl" because it is linked to the physical activity of pronunciation. According to Socrates, the
> tongue was "most agitated and least at rest in the pronunciation of this letter" and therefore it was
> originally used to express motion. 

A bilabial trill would work well for these concepts, too.

>Aspirated phonemes requiring expenditure of breath, likewise
> find themselves in windy, tempestuous words such as "shivering, seething, shock and shaking".

All sonorants require "expenditure of breath".
I don't think "aspirated" is the word you're looking for.

> Lamda, with its liquid smoothness produced by the slipping of the tongue, is found in words like
> "slip, level, floor, flood, sleek" (when combined with another syllable it denotes easy but repetitive
> motion as in "handle, swivel, anvil, paddle"); 

Ditto with other approximants.

>gamma,  in which the tongue is detained, combines
> with lamda to express the notion of stickiness, as in "glue, glutinous, glucose"."

Would you extend that to other plosives, or only
other voiced plosives?

I've made some use of such phonaesthemes
for gjax-zym-byn, and I reckon a loglang or
auxlang could do the same, but I question how
scalable such an approach is compared with
other methods of deriving vocabulary.

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field

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