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AUXLANG  August 2005, Week 3

AUXLANG August 2005, Week 3

Subject:

Marki metaforon kaj ironion; devigaj aux ne-devigaj gramatikaj kategorioj en helplingvo

From:

Jim Henry <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:01:41 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (128 lines)

On 8/21/05, Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Jim Henry:

> > Nu, gj-zym-byn ja havas metafor-montran afikson
> > "-ga", kiu povas uzigxi aux cxe verboj aux cxe
> > substantivoj aux cxe modifiloj.

> > Mi ne pensas, ke tia partikulo aux afikso estus
> > malutila en ideala helplingvo; sed gxi estu ne-
> > deviga elekteblajxo,

Mi diris tion, cxar mi ne pensas, ke en poezio oni havu tiun
metafor-afikson je cxiun trian vorton; tio estus iom troripetema.  Sed
en ne-poezia verkado versxajne oni marku ekplicite la metaforojn.
 
> [Mi skribis la suban alineojn kun la miskompreno
> ke vi parolis pri partikulon por ironio.  Mi vidas
> nun ke vi skribis "metaforo".  Mi ne volas reskribi
> la alineon. Mi esperas ke tio ne estas tro konfuziga.]

Nu, bone.
 
> Nu, mi ne nomus gxin "malutila", sed mi ja kredas
> ke ju pli da "nedevigaj elekteblajxoj" estas, des
> pli konfuziga povas esti la lernado.  Cetere, mi vidas
> ecx pli grandan riskon de miskompreno se tia signado
> eblus sed ne devigus.  Ekzemple, imagu ke en Esperanto
> oni indikus ironian intencon per la finajxjo -az, -iz,
> kaj -oz.  Se mi dirus "Hej, rigardu, Jim volaz kisi
> la hundon!", cxiuj komprenus ke mi nur sxercas, kaj
> ke eble vi vere nur volas kapti la hundon.  Se mi
> aliflanke dirus ke vi "volas" kisi la hundon, oni
> povus pensi - nu Tomaso *povus* signi ironion per -az,
> sed li ne tion faris, do versxjane li ja pensas ke
> (kontrauxsxajne) Jim ja volas kisi hundon ... aux
> Tomaso aux Jim estas strangulo ... nu eble Tomaso
> sxercxas, sed se jes, kial li ne uzis la fakulativan
> finajxon?  Versxajne li ne sxercas.

Versxajne vi pravas.  Mi nun distingos inter
du specoj de gramatikaj kategorioj:

1. tiuj, kiuj _precizigas_ la signifon de vorto
(nombro kaj difiniteco cxe substantivoj; 
tempo kaj aspekto cxe verboj)

2. tiuj, kiuj profunde sxangxas la signifon de vorto aux frazo (modo
cxe verboj; kazo cxe substantivoj)

La unuajn kategoriojn oni povas marki elekteble, kaj se 
oni ne markas, la signifo igxas pli gxenerala aux
malpreciza, kaj la auxskultanto versxajne
divenos la signifon el kunteksto.  La duajn kategoriojn
oni versxajne devas marki devige, sed tio ne nepre 
signifias fleksion.  Sed, se oni markas ilin 
per memstaraj partikuloj (kiel cxe Ceqli aux
gjax-zym-byn), tiam la forlaso de tia partikulo
devas signifi ian neuxtran modon de tiu kategorio.

Ekzemple, se forestas ia partikulo kia "cxu" aux "-u" por marki frazon
kiel demando aux postulo, tiam la auxskultanto supozu la frazon
indikativa.  Kaj versxajne la forlaso de "ironia" aux 
simila  partikulo signifu, ke la diranto intencas sian 
frazon serioze.

Mi supozas, ke en la angla ni esprimas kaj komprenas
ironian signifon per du manieroj:

1. fonologie, per tono kaj akcento 

2. pragmatike, per tio, ke oni diras tion, kion la auxskultanto
_ne povas_ kompreni kiel lauxvorte serioza (supozante lin
samkultura kaj de norma inteligenteco)

La unua metodo ne tauxgas por artefarita helplingvo.  La duan metodon
oni uzu nur zorge, pro tio, ke kulturan similecon oni ne povas
antauxsupozi, kaj tial nia penso "mia auxskultanto ne povus kompreni
cxi tion kiel seriozoa, do li komprenos gxin kiel ironia" ofte estos
erara.  Tial mi supozas, ke partikulo aux afikso por indiki ironion 
estus utila en helplingvo.

> > .........sed gxi estu ne-
> > deviga elekteblajxo,
> > samkiel la partikuloj por tempo, aspekto, modo,
> > nombro, difiniteco, -- kaj cxion alian, kion
> > montras per fleksioj Esperanto, Ido, Interlingua kaj
> > aliaj euxrop-imit-lingvoj.

> Mi ja vidis multajn klarigojn pri lingvoj (veraj kaj
> eblaj) en kiu la signado de nombro kaj tempo estas
> nedeviga.  Mi ankoraux ne konvinkigxis ke deviga
> nombro- aux tempo-signado en Esperanto kauxzas pli
> grandan problemon por certaj homoj, ol nedeviga
> signado kauxzus por aliaj.

Nu, eble vi pravas.  Mia suspekto -- kiun iomete pravigas
mia sperto pri la lernado de gjax-zym-byn, sed tio ne 
estas science valida eksperimento -- estas mala; sed
ni ne povas certi pri tio sen veraj eksperimentoj.

Sed -- nu, la plimulto el helplingvoj prenas la plimulton
el sia vortaro el la okcident-euxropaj lingvoj.  Kial ili ankaux
prenas siajn devigajn gramatikajn kategoriojn el la samaj
lingvoj?  Cxu ne estus pli neuxtrale, marki devige malsaman
aron de gramatikaj kategorioj?  Do oni devige markus
modon, aspekton, kaj evidentecon sed ne difinitecon, nombron,
aux tempon.  Aux oni simple forlasus cxiun devigan kategorion
el la unua aro (la precizigaj) kiun mi supre distingis.
 
> > Via ideo pri afikso por montri ironian intencon
> > estas bona; mi eble enkondukos afikson tian en
> > gzb, aux pli versxajne adverban partikulon.
> 
> Finfine mi sukcesis havi novan ideon!  :-)

Almenaux novan al mi.  Sed mi havis suspekton, kaj 
per Google konfirmis gxin:

http://home.inreach.com/sl2120/Ch-6%20More%20Verb%20Morphology.htm#Sec6o6

John Quijada jam havas ironi-montran fleksion 
en Ithkuil.

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang.htm
...Mind the gmail Reply-to: field

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November 2003, Week 5
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November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 1
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January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 3
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October 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 3
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December 2001, Week 1
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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September 2001, Week 1
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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January 1998, Week 3
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January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
December 1997, Week 4
December 1997, Week 3
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March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 3
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February 1997, Week 1

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