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CONLANG  August 2005, Week 3

CONLANG August 2005, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Colloquial German, experiencers and the construct state

From:

Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 18 Aug 2005 02:16:31 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (179 lines)

Thinking of "zitten", in Colloquial Dutch "zitten" <to sit> often 
replaces "zijn" <to be> as a locative verb.

"Waar zit je?" - Where are you?

Ik zit thuis - I'm at home
Ik zit op m'n werk - I'm at my job
Ik zit op de camping - I'm at the camping site
Ik zit in Frankrijk - I'm in France
Ik zit in de kroeg - I'm in the pub

Maybe it has to do something with the similarity of Older Dutch between

gy syt = you are [ji zit], Mod Dutch jij bent, Southern Dutch gij zijt
gy sit = you sit [ji zIt], Mod Dutch jij zit, Southern Dutch  gij zit

"Gij zijt" [GEi zEit]is still used in Southern Dutch, i.e. Dutch of 
Belgium and the Dutch provinces/areas Noord-Brabant, Noord-Limburg, Zeeuws-
Vlaanderen, Zuid-Gelderland etc, but also in the Bible.

Ingmar

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:48:22 -0400, Ingmar Roerdinkholder 
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>More Colloquial Dutch (CD) :
>
>CD uses the verbs "zitten" (sit), "lopen" (walk), "staan" (stand) and
>even "liggen" (lie) in a different way than Standard Dutch (SD), English
>or German; "zitten" is used most frequently here.
>
>CD
>"Robbert die zit te zeuren"
>"Robbert die loopt te zeuren"
>"Robbert die ligt te zeuren"
>"Robbert die staat te zeuren"
> Robbert that SITS/WALKS/LIES/STANDS to nag
> Robert is nagging
>SD
>"Robbert is aan het zeuren"
>
>CD
>"Petra die zit net d'r koffers in te pakken"
> Petra that SITS just to pack her bags
> Petra is just packing her bags
>SD
>"Petra is net haar koffers aan het (in)pakken"
>
>CD
>"Dat meisje dat zit te tennissen"
> That girl that SITS to tennis"
> That girl is playing tennis
>SD
>"Dat meisje is aan het tennissen"
>
>
>Any cognates in German or Afrikaans?
>Again, this too reminds us at Creoles, that use forms of "stand" etc.
>as verb markers.
>
>Btw: isn't Spanish "estar" used in the same way, originally derived from
>Latin STARE = to stand?
>
>Kind Regards
>Ingmar
>
>
>On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:14:17 -0400, Ingmar Roerdinkholder
><[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>From what you wrote, I think German usage is different from Dutch.
>>
>>"Jan die heeft een nieuwe fiets"  does not mean
>>"Concerning Jan, he's got a new bike" but simply
>>"Jan has got a new bike".
>>
>><Die> no stress, nor is there a pause after <Jan>.
>>
>>We can say "Jan, dÝe heeft een nieuwe fiets", <die> stressed, then it is
>>"Speaking of John, he's got a new bike".
>>
>>Maybe the colloquial Dutch examples, which are seldom written but soken
>>all the time, are related somehow to the usage in the Creole languages of
>>our (former) Dutch colonies, like
>>
>>Sranan Tongo (Suriname):
>>
>>"A boi de komoto en oso"
>>the boy DE come out his house
>>The boy is coming out of his house
>>
>>Coll Dutch
>>"De jongen die komt uit z'n huis"
>>Stand Dutch
>>"De jongen komt uit zijn huis"
>>
>>
>>Papiamento (Dutch Antilles: Aruba/Curašao/Bonaire)
>>
>>"E mohen ta bai kas"
>>the woman TA go house
>>The woman is going home
>>
>>C Dutch
>>"De vrouw die gaat naar huis"
>>S Dutch
>>"De vrouw gaat naar huis"
>>
>>Groetjes
>>
>>Ingmar
>>
>>(btw: <betreft> with single f ;-})
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 02:51:55 +0200, Henrik Theiling <[log in to unmask]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Hi!
>>>
>>>Ingmar Roerdinkholder <[log in to unmask]> writes:
>>>> More colloquial Dutch:
>>>>
>>>> Jan DIE heeft een nieuwe fiets
>>>> "John THAT has a new bike" = John has got a new bike
>>>>...
>>>
>>>Same, but with comma in German.  Feels like an emphasised
>>>topicalisation to me (and the pattern is very similar to French):
>>>
>>>   Jan, der hat ein neues Fahrrad.
>>> = Was Jan angeht, der hat ein neues Fahrrad.
>>>
>>>   Wat Jan betrefft, hij heeft een nieuwe fiets.
>>>
>>>   Concerning Jan, he has a new bike.
>>>
>>>The explicit topicalisation with 'was ... angeht' is overly formal,
>>>I'd say.  It's reserved to translating Japanese sentences and to
>>>writing grammars of German only. :-)  The repetition of the
>>>corresponding constituent does the same job more naturally.
>>>
>>>(Anyway, there are situations where you cannot use this, e.g.
>>>if the topic is not an argument or adjunct of the verb, e.g.
>>>the standard Japanese example:
>>>
>>>   Sakana-wa tai-ga          ii.
>>>   fish-TOP  red_snapper-NOM is_good.
>>>
>>>I think this'd need 'Was Fisch angeht, ist Schnappfisch gut'.
>>>Colloquially, maybe: 'Ja, Fisch -- da ist Schnappfisch gut'. :-))
>>>
>>>> Ons huis DAT moet een nieuw dak hebben
>>>
>>>   Unser Haus, das mu▀ ein neues Dach haben.
>>> = Was unser Haus angeht, das mu▀ ein neues Dach haben.
>>>
>>>   Wat ons huis betrefft, dat moet een nieuw dak hebben.
>>>
>>>   Concerning our house, it needs a new roof.
>>>
>>>>...
>>>> In spoken Dutch, <die> (common gender+plural) and <dat> (neutrum)
>>>> are virtually always used, although they're omitted in Standard Dutch.
>>>>
>>>> Do you have that in Coll. German, Middle English and/or Afrikaans, 
too?
>>>
>>>It's both written and spoken German, definitely not restricted to
>>>spoken, and definitely not used virtually always, but only for an
>>>emphasised topicalisation.  At least I'd say so.
>>>
>>>Concerning Afrikaans :-) -- I have no idea.
>>>
>>>**Henrik
>>>========================================================================
=

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October 2002, Week 1
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August 2002, Week 1
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 1
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