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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  October 2005, Week 3

CONLANG October 2005, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Survey(?) of ConLangs' Calendars and Colors and Kinterms

From:

tomhchappell <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:40:22 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (261 lines)

--- In [log in to unmask], caotope <johnvertical@H...> wrote:
> [snip]
> I am contemplating a system of the following kind:
> *3 basic "hueless" colors (^= black, gray, white)
> *7 basic "primary hued" colors (^= red, orange, yellow, green,
> turquose, blue, purple)
> *7 basic "intermediate hued" colors (^= tangerine, gold, lime, **,
> azure, indigo, magenta)
> *7 basic "pastel" colors (^=maroon, brown, beige, **, teal, **, 
lilac)

That looks good.

Looking at it, I think it is the same "sort" of system that mine is, 
with some variations:
1) My hueless subsystem -- my gray scale -- has the 1/4 and 3/4 
points as well as the endpoints and the 1/2 - way point.
2) My fully-saturated hues are 4 "primary" -- red, yellow, green, 
blue -- and 4 "intermediate" -- orange, "chartreuse" (?), cyan 
(aqua?), violet/magenta/purple (?).
3) I went ahead and created 3, rather than just one, "pastel"-type 
modification of each fully-saturated hue; one half-hue-plus-half-
white, one half-hue-plus-half-black, and one half-hue-plus-half-gray. 
4) My "pastels" are based on all 8 of my saturated hues, not just the 
"primary" ones.

So, your system has considerably more detail than mine in the fully-
saturated hues -- 14 instead of 8; considerably less in 
the "pastels" -- 7 instead of 24; and slightly less in the grays -- 3 
instead of 5.

-----

In natlangs, there are generally at most 12 monomorphemic color terms.
There are particular color-terms in my conlang that are never 
monomorphemic in natlangs. 

AFAIK no natlang has more than three gray-scale monomorphemic terms --
 in essence, black or white or gray -- but that is not the most 
common omission.

Also, the colors I've called "chartreuse"(=Green+Yellow) 
and "cyan=aqua=cerulean"(=Green+Blue) don't appear to be 
monomorphemic color terms in any natlang -- but that, also, doesn't 
seem to be the most common "omission".

The most common omissions seem to be that, for each fully-saturated 
hue, at most one "pastel" is monomorphemic cross-linguistically.

Red+White=Pink is monomorphemic in many natlangs, 
but Red+Black and Red+Grey never are, AFAIK.

Yellow+Black=Brown is monomorphemic in many natlangs,
but AFAIK Yellow+White never is; and Yellow+Gray(="beige"?) is 
either "polymorphemic", or labeled by a term from another semantic 
field, or covered as a non-core or non-central meaning of "Brown".
 
Orange+Black is also covered by the extended meaning of "Brown"; and 
Orange+White ("creamsicle"?) is not a monomorphemic colorterm in any 
natlang I've heard of.

(BTW English's "orange", and many other Western European natlangs' 
equivalent terms, started off etymologically as a label from a 
different semantic field; but in some natlangs it is represented by 
its own monomorphemic color term.)

Green, "Chartreuse", and "Cyan" (or "Aqua") don't seem to have off-
white or off-black or off-grey versions that are monomorphemic in any 
natlang I've heard of.

Blue+White, "galuboi" in Russian IIRC, is monomorphemic in many 
natlangs. ("cielo" in Spanish is not considered a monomorphemic color 
term; it is, instead, a label borrowed from a different semantic 
field, since it also means "sky".) But Blue+Black and Blue+Grey are 
not monomorphemic color terms in any natlang I've heard of.

I do not know whether "Purple"+White="Lavender" is a monomorphemic 
color term in any natlang; I suspect it might be, but I seriously 
doubt "Purple"+Black and/or "Purple"+Gray(="Mauve"?) are.

-----

Look at 
"Date: 23 Sep 91 14:07:00 EDT
From: "61510::GILSON" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: color terminology
To: "conlang" <[log in to unmask]>"

and the thread it started to see an archived conlang discussion of 
color (or colour) terms.

The idea of using Munsell chips or something like them as the 
semantic centers or core meanings of conlangs' color terms is 
included in
"To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: defining colour terms in conlangs
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 91 20:01:05 +0100
From: And Rosta <[log in to unmask]>

Bruce Gilson asks how conlangs are to define colour terms. My proposed
solution is to state which Munsell Colour [Color] Chips correspond to
the senses of the colour terms. Munsell chips are an international 
standard."

A later post says:
"One problem is that there are several different systems for giving
color standards: CIE, Munsell, Hickethier, etc. Each has its 
advantages and disadvantages."

The archived thread also discusses the advantages of concentrating on 
the semantic center or semantic core of each colorterm, rather than 
on the boundaries between them; and, also has some argument about why 
even that may not be sufficiently unambiguous.

> altho some of these may end up non-monomorphemic. I'm particularily
> sceptic of "lime", "gold", "indigo", "pastel-green" and "pastel-
blue"
> 
> The difference between all the hued colors is more varied than may
> seem, however. For example, the difference between "yellow" 
and "gold"
> (or "beige" and "brown") is that of lightness/darkness at least as
> much as it is that of hue. Some other similar pairs include
> azure&blue; lilac&indigo; and greenish-turquose&teal.
> 
> ("^=" is used for the "corresponds" symbol. ** do not have good
> English translations available, at least ones I'd know of.)

Thanks, John.

> No decided kinterm system yet.

There are, IIRC, six major types of systems.  Let's see if I can 
recall them.

"Diagonal" systems (2 types) can be either patriline-oriented or 
matriline-oriented.

In the matriline-oriented diagonal system, whatever kinterm is used 
for the relationship of a man to any given female relative, is also 
used for the relationship to that relative's mother, and to any of 
that relative's daughters. In the patriline-oriented diagonal system, 
whatever kinterm is used for the relationship of a woman to any given 
male relative, is also used for the relationship to that relative's 
father, and to any of that relative's sons.

In a matriline-oriented diagonal system, (such as the Navajo), 
for example, a man uses one kinship term to refer to his mother, his 
mother's mother, his mother's mother's mother, etc. ..., and all of 
their daughters, daughters' daughters, daughters' daughters' 
daughters, etc. 
So, a mother and a sister and one grandmother and some aunts and some 
nieces and so on, are all covered by one term.
A different kinterm applies to his wife, his wife's mother, his 
wife's mother's mother, ... and all of their daughters (including his 
own daughters), their daughters' daughters (including some of his 
sisters-in-law), etc.
There may also be a kinterm to apply to his father's mother and 
father's sisters and all of their mothers and all of their daughters; 
and other kinterms for other relatives, if any, follow a similar 
pattern. 

In a patriline-oriented diagonal system (such as, IIRC, the Crow), 
OTOH, a woman uses one kinship term to refer to her father, her 
father's father, her father's father's father, etc. ..., and all of 
their sons, sons' sons, sons' sons' sons, etc. 
So, a father and a brother and one grandfather and some uncles and 
some nephews and so on, are all covered by one term.
A different kinterm applies to her husband, her husband's father, her 
husband's father's father, ... and all of their sons (including her 
own sons), their sons' sons (including some of her brothers-in-law), 
etc.
There may also be a kinterm to apply to her mother's father and 
mother's brothers and all of their fathers and all of their sons; 
and other kinterms for other relatives, if any, follow a similar 
pattern. 
 
"Classificatory" kinship systems are based on calling any male 
relative's brother by the same kinterm as that male relative, and any 
female relative's sister by the same kinterm as that female 
relative.  In particular, a father's brother is a "father" and a 
mother's sister is a "mother".
I am not sure whether or not this is counted as a separate type 
within "classificatory"; but, in the Hawaiian system, a father's 
sister is also a "mother" and a mother's brother is also a "father".  
In these systems, the only meaning of a kinship term is, how many 
generations older or younger than Ego the kin-referent is.

The Sudanese system (and other systems of the same type) fully 
distinguishes between different kinds of relationships that are not 
distinguished by any other system. 
In particular, a father's father and a mother's father are not called 
by the same term (as English "grandfather"); nor are a father's 
mother and a mother's mother (as English "grandmother").
Father's brother, mother's brother, father's sister's husband, and 
mother's sister's husband, are four separate kinterms in systems of 
this type (English calls them all "uncle"); likewise father's sister, 
mother's sister, father's brother's wife, and mother's brother's 
wife, are four separate terms, unlike English "aunt".
Continuing on, father's brother's daughter, father's sister's 
daughter, mother's brother's daughter, and mother's sister's 
daughter, are four separate terms, unlike French "cousine"; and 
sister's husband, wife's brother, and spouse's sister's husband, are 
three separate terms, unlike English "brother-in-law" (I don't think 
English calls a brother's wife's brother a "brother-in-law").

I believe, if I recall correctly, that the Classical Latin system 
exemplifies the fifth type, and the Modern English system exemplifies 
the sixth type.

-----

When I was trying to learn the Chinese (specifically the Mandarin) 
kinship system from an informant; often when I'd ask "what do you 
call such-and-such a relative", she would reply "well, which one is 
older?"
In Mandarin, the kinterm for younger brother and the kinterm for 
older brother are distinct from each other; as are the kinterms for 
older sister and for younger sister.  
In other ways it is a lot like the Sudanese system; there are two 
terms for grandfather and two for grandmother, since father's father 
is not the same as mother's father, etc.
So our English word "uncle" has eight distinct translations in 
Mandarin:
Father's Older Brother
Mother's Older Brother
Father's Younger Brother
Mother's Younger Brother
Father's Older Sister's Husband
Mother's Older Sister's Husband
Father's Younger Sister's Husband
Mother's Younger Sister's Husband

On the other hand, like the Classificatory Kinship Systems, Mandarin 
does not distinguish between Mother and Step-Mother: 
nor between Father and Step-Father:
nor between any two of; full-brother, agnate half-brother, uterine 
half-brother, and step-brother.

> Calendar will likely be the Roman
> calendar (since this is a personal rather than concultural artlang)

Since I have yet to complete even one conlang, but have at least two 
different uses for a conlang, I wonder if I should go for two or 
three conlangs instead of just one.

One would be for a Terrestrial-originated human society with a long 
history or prehistory on Earth;
the other would be for an interstellar humans-and-many-other-species-
as-well-as-Artifical-Intelligences society with a long history of 
multi-sapient-species living-together.

The "lunisolar" calendar I talked about is very obviously based on 
Earth's day, Earth's year, and Earth's Moon's month.

-----

Thanks, John.

Tom H.C. in MI

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November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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