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CONLANG  November 2005, Week 1

CONLANG November 2005, Week 1

Subject:

Fwd: OFFLIST: Applicatives (was: Re: Requesting some challenging sentences)

From:

"David J. Peterson" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 2 Nov 2005 01:36:36 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (235 lines)

Tom let me know that this was supposed to go to the list.  Or,
rather, that it could profitably go to the list.

-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."

-Jim Morrison

http://dedalvs.free.fr/

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "tomhchappell" <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: October 30, 2005 12123 PM PST
> To: "David J. Peterson" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: OFFLIST: Applicatives (was: Re: Requesting some  
> challenging sentences)
>
>
> Hi David.
>
> --- In [log in to unmask], "David J. Peterson" <dedalvs@G...>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Thanks to Tom, who gave a very thorough description of
>> applicativization.
>>
>
> Thanks! <blush>
>
>
>> One quick question:
>>
>> Tom wrote:
>> <<
>> I don't think the "third position" counts as "oblique" for the
>> purpose of this terminology.  Promoting "third position" to "second
>> position" in an indirect/direct language is called "Dative
>>
> Movement";
>
>> promoting "third position" to "second position" in a
>> secundative/primative language is called "Anti-Dative Movement".
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> In the last clause, do you mean "second position" to "third
>>
> position"?
>
> No, that would be a "demotion"; I meant what I wrote.
>
> The source of your confusion over what /I/ meant (as opposed to
> what /someone else/ might mean) could be in my opinion -- shared by
> at least a minority of people who might actually know -- that English
> is a Secundative/Primative, not an Indirect/Direct, language.
>
> Thus "I gave Sally-PRIMAT a book-SECUND" (pre- any movement)
> "I gave a book-(new PRIMAT) /to/-Sally (OBLIQU)" (after Anti-Dative
> Movement)
>
> -----
>
> And, anyway, those Bantuists I mentioned later obviously included
> applicativization of recipients and/or benefactives
> as "applicatives"; and recipients and benificiaries are
> often "datives" or "third roles"; so "dative movement" would get
> counted as "applicative" by these particular Bantuists when it took
> place in these particular Bantu languages, if nowhere else and/or by
> no-one else.
>
>
>> Anyway, a last note, applicativization, in my mind, is a process
>> like, say, relativization, where it can only apply to certain
>>
> categories
>
>> which the language defines, and so all you need to do is figure out
>> which categories it applies to.
>>
>
> It was my impression that the question "Which roles can be
> applicativized?" was language-specific.
> Is that what you are saying here?
> I wanted to say that, and forgot to.
>
> -----
>
> I am not positive why and when and for what uses applicativization
> becomes current in a language.  One thing I do remember finding
> striking is this;
> In Accusative/Nominative languages with (whatever Klaiman called the
> major supertype of voice system -- not "basic" like Sanskrit and
> Greek and Fula and not "information salient" like Tagalog and Mayan
> and not the kind Algonquin e.g. has, but the kind English e.g. has)
> voice, the only way to make a Passive is to promote the Second Role --
>  the Direct or Primary Object -- to the First Role -- the Subject.
> In some languages with an Applicative, anything can get promoted to
> Direct or Primary Object; then in some of those languages, the
> resulting sentence can be Passivized.  That means that, in those
> languages, by a process of two transformations, any participant, no
> matter how peripheral, can become the Subject.
>
>
>> Applicatives are often used as
>> rhetorical/stylistic devices, or in reference tracking.
>>
>
> I noticed, also, that this thread suggested it was used in languages
> where relativization was restricted to higher grammatical roles --
> the first two, for example.
>
>
>> So a language
>> with a lot of applicatives, is probably one where reference tracking
>> is extremely important.  For example, you may have a language
>> where an argument that's in focus can never be less than a direct
>> object.  So if you want to say, "My father has a pool cue that's
>>
> been
>
>> in the family for generations.  Yesterday, for the first time, he
>>
> let
>
>> me play pool with it", you'd use an instrumental applicative in the
>> second clause, and probably demote "pool" to some kind of olique
>> argument, so you'd get, "Yesterday, for the first time, he let me
>> with-play it by means of pool", or something like that.  The
>>
> opposite
>
>> would be strongly dispreferred.  In fact, these types of sentences
>> in English start to get bizarre the further away you push the
>> introduced topic, because English is sensitive to this, as well.
>>
>
> I have heard this before; that things that you flat can't do
> (grammatically, at least) in "exotic" languages, are, in fact,
> strongly dispreferred, after all, even in familiar languages.
>
>
>> So
>> take the following:
>>
>> "My grandparents own a candy store.  Lots of children like to
>> take their friends there."
>>
>> getting worse...
>>
>> "My grandparents own a candy store.  I hear that mayor smith
>> once told a secretary to leave his notebook there."
>>
>> and yet worse...
>>
>> "My grandparents own a candy store.  In Canada, Bill heard about
>> a couple that owned a farm near Sonoma that had been married
>> by a minister who'd once went to it."
>>
>> None of these is ungrammatical, just a little odd.  This is because
>> when you introduce a topic in English, one expects the subject of
>> the next sentence to usually be the same--especially when the
>> subject is pronominalized.  Relative clauses are also used often,
>> and this is where English takes advantage of its ability to
>>
> relativize
>
>> a lot of things.  For the first one, for example, you could say:
>>
>> "My grandparents own a candy store where lots of children like
>> to take their friends."
>>
>> That'd be relativizing a location, but perhaps the more natural
>> would be to turn into an goal...
>>
>> "My grandparents own a candy store that lots of children like
>> to take their friends to."
>>
>> One thing I've found (and this is by no means a direct correlation;
>> just something I've noticed) is that languages that relativize fewer
>> positions tend to have more applicatives.  Often you'll find if a
>> language has five or more types of applicatives, only subjects can
>> be relativized.  There's one language in particular I'm thinking of,
>> but I can't remember it's name...  Anyway, that's my two cents.
>>
>>
>
> And, I thank you for your two cents' worth, which was indeed worth at
> least that much, or more. (to me, anyway)
>
> In my yet-to-be-incarnated conlang, I am thinking of having
> information-salience ("topic" and "comment", and "focus"
> and "background", and "given" and "new") morphologically marked;
> separately from semantic or thematic or theta- roles.  As long as I
> am so doing it seems to me that reference-tracking is something that
> should be easily made independent too.  I was thinking of having
> three (I really only need two, probably, but three is more
> traditional) "pivots" ("first pivot", "second pivot", "third pivot" --
>  I'm so creative when it comes to names) marked in each clause,
> according to how likely they are to also be participants of nearby
> clauses -- earlier or later co-ordinate clauses, or super-ordinate
> clauses.  I figure I'll say something like, in the event of a tie
> for "likelihood", the "first pivot" will be the one that's likeliest
> to be a co-participant of the closest preceding clauses, and
> the "second pivot" will be the one that's likeliest to be a co-
> participant of the closest following clauses -- or something like
> that.
>
>
>
>> -David
>> *******************************************************************
>> "A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
>> "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
>>
>> -Jim Morrison
>>
>> http://dedalvs.free.fr/
>>
>>
>
> Thanks for writing.
>
> Tom H.C. in MI
>
>
>
>
>
>

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March 2006, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 5
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January 2004, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
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March 2003, Week 1
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 3
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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