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AUXLANG  November 2005, Week 2

AUXLANG November 2005, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Types of neutrality, and central concerns for an IAL

From:

Auxilingua Project <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:11:23 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (138 lines)

2005/11/9, Donald J. HARLOW <[log in to unmask]>:
> My, it's been quiet here for the past month!

Indeed!

> Let's see if we can ruffle
> some feathers ...

Ok, I'm ruffled.

> I have often wondered why some people put so much stress on "linguistic"
> and "cultural" neutrality in arguments about IALs. Neither, actually, is
> very important.

Ah, perhaps because it is important to them.
On one hand I believe culture to be very important.
Better that the IAL have it's own culture than a
"neutral" culture, which smacks of "no" culture
at all. I'd say Eo has a thriving "culture" of its own.

> The concept of "neutrality" in this sense is essentially a spoiler, and
> even in that role a very minor one (if you asked people why they did not
> learn, say, Interlingua, the signal "because it's not neutral" would be
> drowned in the far, far stronger signal of other reasons).

You see, you wanted to ruffle feathers
and now look what you've done!

Interlingua is neutral.
It is absolutely neutral as far
as I'm concerned. Neutral that
is in its own "neutrally" workable
way. It leans on neutrality for the
sake of making it usable by folks
who recognize it as akin to their
mother tongue, and yet strangely
different in a neutrally intelligible way.
It's not French, nor Italian, nor Spanish
no, it is none of the above, it is "neutral"
in a "Romance" sort of way.

Of course I know you mean "neutral"
in a global sort of way. And so I need
to point out that Spanish is indeed a
global language, so is English, and
to a certain extent Portuguese and
French too. So this would make
Interlingua also neutral in a "globally"
Romance way ;-)

> >Another form of neutrality is simply not being anyone's native or home
> >language.  Any conlang achieves that kind of neutrality.

Well said. For me and many Interlinguanos
the "lingua belle et international" is quite a
neutral ground where we meet and share
opinions. If some of us used their native Spanish, or
Swedish, or Danish, or what-have-you-lang
in Interlingua discussions, email lists, groups etc.
then we wouldn't be on such neutral ground.

> English is
> >temporarily neutral in this sense when a German tourist in Athens uses it
> >in a taverna.  But of course it isn't neutral when the tourist is American.

English is very much in actual use for this purpose.
Perhaps in taverns all around the globe, in fact ;-)

> Actually, a German tourist, an American tourist and a Greek bartender
...see this bear walk into the bar...
> talking in English
and orders a beer
The American tourist says:
"Wow, for a grizzly you
said that pretty good, dude"

The German tourist says,
"Indeed, for a bear you speak
English quite well".

Sipping his beer first, the bear then responds:
"Quite so. Although I'm not sure I understood
everything this American gentleman has said.
In any case, I find it extremely advantageous
to speak English when among a multilingual
group."

"Wonderful!" says the German, "Cool!" says
the American.

"Opa! With the weather I also speak English bester and
bester" says the Greek bartender.

> It depends on what part of the argument ("argumento", not "disputo") you
> listen to.

ARGUE:*  "To persuade or influence (another), as by presenting
reasons...To engage in a quarrel; dispute"

...a bit of a difference in shades of meaning perhaps...

> Esperanto is extremely (I will avoid the word "infinitely") easier for him
> to learn than any other language originating in Europe. This argument is
> the one that most of those who don't like Esperanto (for whatever reason)
> don't want to hear.

You're right. I didn't really want to hear that.
I'd say that for a Chinese person, Interlingua
is also quite more accessible than natural
European languages, or for any other person
not necessarily one from China.

> widely-used-and-known human language; this, of course, made it more
> difficult to learn for everybody. The ideal situation, of course, would be
> to have a language that was _equally easy_, not _equally difficult_, for
> everybody, but I don't see how that can be attained.

Yes, the argument that a language is neutral
because it is equally difficult to all learners,
may be good for neutrality, but it is not good
for any of the learners. Better to be good for
some learners, in fact the more learners who
find it not so difficult the better.

> And ultimately no IAL in actual use, whether it's Esperanto or Lojban, is
> going to end up being culturally neutral; it will, given enough speakers,
> develop its own culture, and at that point will end up being culturally
> biased -- towards itself.

You said it! And I definitely agree, and
I think this would be a good thing. Not
at all "unnatural" ;-)

With regards, and thanks for helping break the silence.

Quasi amicomicalmente,
Jay B.

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