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AUXLANG  November 2005, Week 2

AUXLANG November 2005, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Types of neutrality, and central concerns for an IAL

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 9 Nov 2005 17:17:11 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (134 lines)

My, it's been quiet here for the past month! Let's see if we can ruffle 
some feathers ... I'll try to keep attributions straight here.

Je 05.07 atm 2005.11.05, Todd MOODY skribis
>On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 6:12 pm, Shane Sniffen wrote:
>>There are two types of 'neutrality' that we can discuss in relation to
>>the IAL argument; one is linguistic neutrality, which seems to me to be
>>one major aim of Sona (at least the book's subtitle seems to say so),
>>and cultural neutrality, which is a principle aim of Lojban and a
>>partial result of its being based in logic.

I have often wondered why some people put so much stress on "linguistic" 
and "cultural" neutrality in arguments about IALs. Neither, actually, is 
very important.

If, suddenly, everyone in the world were to decide to learn a planned 
language, the average student of (let us say) Esperanto would end up using 
the language at most a few times a year, and that probably not every year. 
Consequently, for him or her the question of neutrality would be pretty 
much irrelevant. More important would be (see Todd's and my comments below 
on this topic) the amount of "bang" you get from the language for your 
"buck". In other words, who cares if the language takes words from every 
language or not, as long as I can get to the level of "eterna komencanto" 
with a couple of days of study?

You could, of course, find a few people who would refuse to learn a 
particular planned language because they did not see it as neutral, whether 
linguistically or culturally. But I would bet dollars to doughnuts that you 
would not turn up as much as _one_ person who went to the trouble to learn 
that language simply because he or she felt it to be sufficiently neutral. 
The concept of "neutrality" in this sense is essentially a spoiler, and 
even in that role a very minor one (if you asked people why they did not 
learn, say, Interlingua, the signal "because it's not neutral" would be 
drowned in the far, far stronger signal of other reasons).

>Another form of neutrality is simply not being anyone's native or home 
>language.  Any conlang achieves that kind of neutrality.  English is 
>temporarily neutral in this sense when a German tourist in Athens uses it 
>in a taverna.  But of course it isn't neutral when the tourist is American.

Actually, a German tourist, an American tourist and a Greek bartender 
talking in English would still likely be using the language in a neutral 
fashion, as long as the tourists were (say) simply asking questions and the 
bartender answering them. If, however, they got into a tiff over the 
American's bar bill and he used his command of English to carry his side of 
the argument through to success -- that's when the language stops being 
neutral.

>>One problem is, it seems like there is no sound definition of what it
>>means to be linguistically 'neutral'.

It's one of those things that everyone who's interested in the subject 
thinks he knows more or less automatically. But, yes, I've never seen such 
a definition, at least not an explicit one.

>I don't know how sound it is, but I think the working understanding of 
>linguistic neutrality is something like: not significantly more (or less) 
>difficult for one population of learners than another, where the 
>populations of learners are understood as speakers of various 
>languages.  Esperanto is routinely criticized for "favoring" speakers of 
>European languages.

It depends on what part of the argument ("argumento", not "disputo") you 
listen to. A Chinese Esperanto speaker will not hesitate to point out that 
Esperanto is harder for him to learn than it is for his colleague from, 
say, Italy; this is an argument that most Esperanto speakers don't really 
want to hear. On the other hand, he will also not hesitate to tell you that 
Esperanto is extremely (I will avoid the word "infinitely") easier for him 
to learn than any other language originating in Europe. This argument is 
the one that most of those who don't like Esperanto (for whatever reason) 
don't want to hear.

>It's an open question whether greater linguistic neutrality would be 
>desirable and whether it would be important enough to make a difference to 
>the fate of an auxlang.

See above.

>>Cultural neutrality, on the other hand, may be more obtainable.  I think
>>lojban does as good a job any any language in reducing cultural
>>artefacts in language;
>
>But both linguistic and cultural neutrality would be maximized in a purely 
>a priori language, such as aUI, that makes no attempt to borrow any 
>lexical material.  If neutrality is the ideal, why not go the distance?
>
>I'm not familiar with Sona.  I did have a look at lojban once, years 
>ago.  What amazed me at the time was the fact that even the most active 
>developers of the language, having worked on it for years, were still 
>nowhere fluency in it.  Maybe that has changed by now.

Cultural neutrality has to do more with the body of _speakers_ of a 
language than with the language itself; to imagine anything else is a form 
of Whorfianism (now out of favor in the linguistic community). From 
everything I've heard, a World Esperanto Congress is considerably more 
culturally neutral than your average annual LogFest.

More important, I think, is the question you raise about facility of 
learning. Lojban has been around for a decade and a half now, and was 
"stabilized" (I think that's a proper term) almost a decade ago. From what 
I've heard, there are actually people who can now use the language in at 
least limited conversation. A decade and a half, or even a decade, into 
Esperanto's existence the situation was very, very different. Individuals, 
given a minimum of learning materials and a certain degree of enthusiasm, 
took the language and ran with it. Seven years after the publication of 
Esperanto people were already using it in their international travels 
(Kjell, if he is paying attention, will certainly remember the name of 
Valdemar Langlet). I have not heard -- perhaps lojbab can correct me on 
this? -- that any significant number of people have actually used Lojban in 
their international travels, even twice as far into the history of the 
language and in an era when international travel is somewhat easier than it 
was in Zamenhof's time.

Of course, Lojban is in a rather unusual position; structurally, it's 
simply another form of Loglan, and Loglan's (and Lojban's) intrinsic form 
of neutrality was achieved primarily because the language was originally 
intended to be _unlike_ any human language, or at least any 
widely-used-and-known human language; this, of course, made it more 
difficult to learn for everybody. The ideal situation, of course, would be 
to have a language that was _equally easy_, not _equally difficult_, for 
everybody, but I don't see how that can be attained.

And ultimately no IAL in actual use, whether it's Esperanto or Lojban, is 
going to end up being culturally neutral; it will, given enough speakers, 
develop its own culture, and at that point will end up being culturally 
biased -- towards itself.


-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/don/don.html
Opinions (in English): http://www.harlows.org/don/opinions/
Esperanto (in English): http://www.harlows.org/don/esperanto/
Literaturo (Esperante): http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/Literaturo

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