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CONLANG  February 2006, Week 1

CONLANG February 2006, Week 1

Subject:

Re: CHAT Graeca sine flexione (was: Greek plosives)

From:

Isaac Penzev <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:20:07 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (157 lines)

R A Brown wrote:


> Isaac Penzev wrote:
> > Now, I find this thread particulary inspiring for those who are interested
in
> > aposteriori conlanging. My own ideas are already rapidly driving away from
GSF
> > to something other, like, e.g. a Greco-Romance-whatever mish-mash fantasy,
> > preserving minimal flexion as, e.g. Spanish does... I may elaborate it
further.
>
> That may be a more satisfactory creation. I cannot say I am really sold
> on Greek with no flexions.

I feel the same. It was fun, it was inspiring, now I feel I need a break. Maybe
I'll try the develop the idea mentioned above: a mashed toylang, stealing most
of its vocabulary from Greek: I love creating grammar much more than pulling
words from the air...

> I have just been thinking what it might look
> like & what I would do if I really had to produced such a language.

Understood.

> >"Was" in AG was _e:n_, so I would keep the form _in_.
>
> In the Attic dialect it was /E:n/, but in Koine we find both /e:n/ and
> /e:to/. Personally I would have preferred a CV shape particle, but _to_
> has already been used as the definite article.

Some prepositions will be VC, anyway: _en_, _ek_, _is_. The particle _in_ would
fit the picture.

> > OK. Shall we use the particle after modal verbs?
>
> I guess so.

Ok.

> >>All the above, of course, is indicative - no problem. Could the passive
> >>be formed using an auxiliary verb such as 'receive' or 'suffer'?
> >
> > To add a particle _méno_ from the participial suffix?
>
> Doesn't that make _méno_ a flexion? Introducing participle by the back
> door. If it were added to the 'invariant' form, we would get some very
> un-Greek formation, e.g. grafimeno = written. OK, GSF is already quite
> un-Greek looking, but.....

I give up :(

> I just feel that this would be compromising the 'sine flexione' notion.
> BTW How does 'Latrino sine flexione' handle the passive?

Don't know about the passive, but the site I found one day (don't remember the
URL, but I have it downloaded and saved on my comp) clearly shows LSF is *not*
purely isolating:

<quoting>
Verbs are conjugated as follows:
salta jumps
saltare to jump
saltato jumped
saltante jumping
salta! jump!
</quoting>

> > A side note - I still miss plurals. The word _polý_ seems a bit overloaded.
Any
> > alternative suggestions? Maybe to indicate it with a different form of the
> > article, e.g. _tus_?
>
> to ~ ta - but that's another move away from 'sine flexione'.

Yes :(

> > Oh yes, if we stick to modern pronunciation, 1pl and 2pl pronouns collapse.
> > Shall we follow the laid path of MG?
>
> That thought occurred to me also. But I have kept quiet. yes, in the
> modern language, the plurals are derived from the singular _by flexion_  ;)
>
> If GSF is flexionless this has to be re-thought.

Well, agglutinativity is not flexion, is it? ;)

> >Shall we have different forms for subject and object?
>
> Why? Many eurolclone auxlangs do not do so, nor do the modern Celtic
> langs   ;)

So,
sn: me / se / autó / autí
pl: ???

> Isaac Penzev wrote:
>  > Oh yes, what about deponential verbs and verbs in -mi?
>
> Deponent verbs ended in -mai, as they still do in modern Greek. The -mi
> verbs were a very small group and clearly destined to be reformed as,
> indeed, they have been. It would IMO be perverse to re-introduce after
> they've disappeared for some 2 thousand years.

Yes, I was not clear enough. I knew those were two different groups.
So, strike out mi-verbs, and take deponent in 3sn form? Like _dínate_?

>  > Also the 3rd declension nouns have often changed to something more
> usable in MG:
>  > _polis_, gen. _poleos_ > _poli_. Shall we use the modern form, or the
> ancient
>  > one?
>
> We take the accusative with the final -n, i.e. _poli_. The question is
> whether the final -i is spelled with iota in the ancient fashion or eta
> in the modern fashion. Also are we happy with _poli_ and _poly_ being
> homophones?    ;)

I don't know. I think I need to try smth else.

> Paul Bennett wrote:
>  >
>  > Can I recommend, if you're going to romanize, that you rationalize the
>  > romanization a bit?
>
> The problem is, of course, that we're still fluctuating between ancient
> spelling and modern pronunciation. I think if we were doing this as a
> serious exercise we would be better adopting a strict system of
> _transliteration_ with notes on the (probable) ancient pronunciation and
> the modern one.

Yes, I'd rather go with _transliteration_.

>  > I don't know whether to recommend rationalizing the vowels. I just
>  > don't  know Greek to know how much it would screw up paradigms and
> whatnot.
>
> Exactly - for example, in Isaac's 'polis' example, it really would be
> preferable IMO to have a system whereby eta and iota are not both
> written as |i| as we discuss which form to adopt.

Mea culpa.

> Oh, yes - before someone writes in - yes, I do know there is a
> transliteration system adopted by those who spend all their time
> discussing Greek, but AFAIK it has not been used on this list.

Beta-code? Can you enlighten us about this system?

> Maybe if the GSF thread continues, we might use it rather than continue
> with our sort of ancient-modern compromise?

I agree.

With all respect,
-- Isaac

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