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AUXLANG  February 2006, Week 4

AUXLANG February 2006, Week 4

Subject:

Re: The most important auxlang task

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:56:48 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (160 lines)

MacLeod Dave skribis je 2006.02.26 4.51 ptm...
> Well, let's take a look at the FAQ then, and I'll put asterisks around 
> the parts that have problems or write my comments in in bold:
> 
> 
>     11. What about other "artificial" languages like Loglan, Ido, etc.?
> 
> People create languages for a variety of purposes. J.R.R. Tolkien's 
> languages of Sindarin and Quenya, for example, were created partly as a 
> recreation, and partly to fulfil a literary purpose. Many languages have 
> been created as international languages; *only Esperanto has continued 
> to grow and prosper after the death of its originator.* (not true)

It's true if you use the "has continued"; for a simple past it might not 
be. (Ido grew somewhat after the death of its originator, Couturat in 
1914, and then crashed in the early-to-mid twenties; even if the "5000" 
figure I've seen elsewhere -- and guessed at myself -- for the current 
number of speakers is correct, that's still well below the 1920-1922 
maximum [*]. Occidental for all intents and purposes disappeared not 
long after Wahl's death, though not because of it. Novial did not 
survive Jespersen, occasional apparently abortive attempts to revive it 
notwithstanding. According to Esterhill, who may have an axe to grind, 
Interlingua's apogee occurred in around 1975 -- see his article on the 
subject in the summer, 2000, issue of "Verbatim", which I believe is now 
archived on-line; Gode died in 1970.)
> 
> Many of the people who have attempted to promulgate international 
> languages more "perfect" (why the quotes?) (i.e., more "international", 
> more "logical", or whatever - whatever?) than Esperanto *have failed to 
> understand that* -- given a certain minimum standard of 
> internationality, aesthetic quality, and ease of learning -- further 
> tinkering not only fails to substantially improve the product, but 
> interferes with the establishment of a large community of speakers. A 
> language like, say, Interlingua *might be* (by some individual's 
> criteria) "better" (again with the quotes) 

I didn't write it, but I'd have put in the quotes, too, since "perfect" 
and "better" are terms that, in this context, are simply not definable 
in a way on which everyone can agree; I gather that they indicate that 
these are words that one person or group might use but about which 
another person or group would be prepared to argue.

The "whatever", one may suppose, indicates that there are other words 
that have been used as arguments in place of "international" and 
"logical" to support the claims of other planned languages -- more 
"instantly understandable" comes immediately to mind.

I find no problem with "have failed to understand that" or "might be"; 
both of these seem quite appropriate, in this context.

> than Esperanto, but in order 
> for it to be worth uprooting the established world of Esperanto and 
> creating an equivalently widespread world community of Interlingua 
> speakers, it would have to be visibly and profoundly an improvement over 
> Esperanto of prodigious proportions. No international language project 
> has yet produced such an obviously ideal language.
> 
> In the net community, one of the best known planned language projects is 
> James Cooke Brown's Loglan (and its revised offshoot Lojban). While some 
> enthusiasts do see Loglan and Lojban as competitors to Esperanto, the 
> languages were conceived not as a tool to facilitate better 
> communication, but as a linguistic experiment, to test the Whorf 
> hypothesis that a language shapes (or limits) the thoughts of its 
> speakers. They are thus deliberately designed to bear little resemblance 
> to existing human languages. While Loglan and Lojban are unlikely (and, 
> by design, perhaps unsuited) to succeed as international languages, both 
> are interesting projects in their own right.
> 
> Afterwards it gives the addresses of a few languages that are least 
> considered to be a threat: Lojban, Klingon, and the Tolkien languages. 
> The proof of whether something is sufficiently neutral is if it could 
> survive on Wikipedia, and a few paragraphs like this wouldn't even make 
> it past one hour. As I said before, it's basically "yeah, there are a 
> few others but they all suck, but if you really want to know what they 
> are here are a few languages that don't challenge us at all."
> 
Mike Urban originally wrote this FAQ for users of of the net, and 
specifically of usenet, the big mailing-list factories such as 
YahooGroups not yet having been invented. At the time, Lojban had an FTP 
site (***) and, I believe, there were already usenet groups for Klingon 
and the Tolklangs. But as far as I know, at the time this part of the 
FAQ was written there was no presence of Ido, Interlingua or Occidental 
on the net at all, except in the hallowed halls of Conlang and Auxlang, 
which you fail to mention (the addresses for which being given along 
with those for Loglan, Lojban, Klingon and the Tolklangs).

Someone -- James Chandler, perhaps? -- earlier raised the question of 
why there was no address or whatever of Ido, and someone suggested to 
him that he simply write to whoever was currently responsible for the 
FAQ -- I think it was already Yves Bellefeuille -- and ask to be added. 
I don't know whether he ever did or not, and in any case that was 
probably after the last time that anybody bothered to update the FAQ 
(IMHO, there are other sections of it considerably more in need of an 
update).

As far as Lojban, Klingon and the Tolkien languages are concerned ... 
well, if you can believe the newspapers, Klingon has already surpassed 
Esperanto as an international language, so "don't challenge us at all" 
is hardly accurate, at least [again] according to the newspapers. And 
after Peter Jackson's films, the Tolklangs have also attained a fair 
popularity, at least in the media (in S. M. Stirling's not-yet-completed 
"Dies the Fire" SF trilogy, Sindarin, along with ASL, is the main means 
of communication among several of the main characters -- Eilir 
MacKenzie, Astrid Larsen and their "Dunedain" who keep the mountains 
east of the Willamette Valley of Oregon free of bandits and other 
riff-raff).

You might also keep in mind that this FAQ was NOT written for Wikipedia, 
or according to the objectivity rules presumably previaling in 
Wikipedia, but represented a specific point of view (that of whatever 
Esperanto speaker was answering the question in the FAQ). I've similarly 
been criticized in this list and elsewhere (invariably by proponents of 
some other planned language) for the fact that chap. 3 of "The Esperanto 
Book" is not particularly objective, despite the fact that I've never 
claimed that it was (quite the opposite!), have in fact specifically 
stated that it wasn't, and in any case have provided links to locations 
where other points of view may be given (which links may themselves be 
out-of-date by now ... someday, if I survive the next six months or so, 
I may go back in and update that chapter; but I doubt whether anyone 
here will take great pleasure in any updates I may make to the text 
...). Similarly, I doubt whether, if this FAQ _were_ to be updated, 
proponents of other planned languages would consider the result to be 
much of an improvement.

---

[*] To determine the size of the speaking populations of various IALs, 
one might also compare participation in the various conferences held in 
those languages. The Wikipedia article about Ido that you've quoted 
gives those figures for the annual Ido get-togethers since 1990; the 
trend in number of participants is ... interesting. (By contrast, see 
photos of conferences held in the 1920s; there's a nice one in Drezen's 
book "Historio de mondlingvo" of the world Ido conference held in 
Sopron, Hungary, in the late twenties _after_ the crash.) Pictures from 
the annual Klingon conference put on by the KLI show a somewhat smaller 
number of participants. From what I understand, the Lojbanists usually 
turn out about 30 people for their annual "LogFest". The (biennial?) 
world Interlingua conference usually has about 50 participants. Last 
year's annual World Esperanto Congress had -- how many? 2,230? -- 
participants. (As of last Thursday's planning meeting, this year's 
California Esperanto Conference had 29 signups; actual participation at 
the end of next month will probably be about double that. The three 
multi-day New Year's Esperanto parties in Germany a month or so ago 
turned out, between them, some 500 drunken revelers speaking in a weird 
non-German tongue.)

[**] Yves Bellefeuille may have had less interest in this particular 
subject than did Michael Urban, and paid less attention to updating it 
before 1999.

[***] I suspect that the two web addresses for Lojban were added fairly 
late, since at the time this was originally written the Web was still in 
its text-only infancy.

-- 
-- Don HARLOW
    http://donh.best.vwh.net/
    http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/Literaturo/Tarzan/
    http://www.harlows.org/don/

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December 2000, Week 5
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