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AUXLANG  March 2006, Week 3

AUXLANG March 2006, Week 3

Subject:

Re: If Esperanto looked like this...

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 19 Mar 2006 20:19:08 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (123 lines)

MacLeod Dave skribis je 2006.03.18 11.23 ptm...
> La jugoslava militoj shokis Europo pro la genocidoj, etna masakroj kaj 
> kolektiva stuproj. Lau vi, kiu plej multe respondecis pri la okazigo de 
> tiu terura eventoj tiam?
> instead of
> La jugoslavaj militoj ŝokis Eŭropon pro la genocidoj, etnaj masakroj kaj 
> kolektivaj stuproj. Laŭ vi, kiu plej multe respondecis pri la okazigo de 
> tiuj teruraj eventoj tiam?
> 
> and used proper nouns as-is (ie. no sense in calling Dili 'Dilo' when 
> the rest of the world recognizes it as Dili), then I would support it.
> 
> The chapeloj caused quite a few problems on Wikipedia with places like 
> Bruxels (sp?) becoming Bru^els, and a simple look at the front of the 
> Wikipedia shows that they prevent people from inputing the url from the 
> address bar: %C4%88efpa%C4%9Do (that says Chefpag^o).
> 
> Don, please tell people at the next conference that if adjectival 
> agreement, chapeloj, obligatory -n even when the context is clear, and 
> affixing of -o to proper names that people already know are removed, 
> that I will wholeheartedly start writing in your Wikipedia every day. 

Perhaps by chance, you've hit on what is the proper method to make such 
changes -- if by "next conference" you mean the next World Esperanto 
Congress, the one in Florence Italy (*) -- *in principle*. Technically, 
as the body that originally officialized the "Fundamento de Esperanto" a 
bit over 100 years ago, the UK (Universala Kongreso) is the only body 
that can authorize a change in it. Even the Akademio de Esperanto can 
only issue recommendations, and then only if they don't conflict with 
the "Fundamento".

I emphasize *in principle* because ... it ain't a-gonna happen. 
Esperanto speakers are, by and large, quite satisfied with the way their 
language works.

Take the diacritics, for instance. In one of his wavering moments, at 
around the time of the Ido crisis of late 1907, Zamenhof prepared a list 
of suggested compromises to the Lingva Komitato that he hoped would 
satisfy the reformers, whom -- like Couturat -- he saw as a great 
breaking wave (but see Aral Vorkosigan's comment to Cordelia Naismith in 
"Shards of Honor", which IMHO is applicable here, about the Ministry of 
Political Education on Barrayar). He never actually sent or published 
the list, but years later it was published in one of several compendia 
of his letters and essays ("Originala Verkaro", "Leteroj de Zamenhof" in 
two volumes, and ito kanzi's interminable "iam kompletigota verkaro de 
l. l. zamenhof"). One of his suggestions was to stop using the 
supersigned letters completely in favor of the H-convention, which you 
use in your example above; this would have the advantage that the 
H-convention is _already_ official in Esperanto as an acceptable 
alternative to the supersigned letters (unlike the X-convention, which 
strikes some Western European purists as giving the language a 
"barbarous" appearance, even though it resolves spelling ambiguities, 
unlike the H-convention). About four or five years ago, one enthusiast 
revived this proposal, attributing it to Zamenhof, in the form of a 
petition to be presented to the Akademio.

When last I saw the petition, it had, in the course of those four or 
five years, acquired some forty-four signatures. Apparently, the great 
mass of Esperanto speakers (readers and writers included) are quite 
satisfied with the supersigned letters.

Similarly for adjective-noun agreement and the obligatory -N ending. In 
both these cases, Esperanto created for itself some syntactic 
simplification in return for a slight increase in morphological 
complexity. Since my own experience in school suggests that it's easier 
to teach morphology than syntax, I for one would certainly never suggest 
changing these to a more Ido-like form. (**)

> I 
> don't care about word derivation or resemblance to Romance languages, 
> nor do I care about overusage of the mal- prefix. Please also note that 
> the main page for the next conference in Italy requires four pages just 
> to accomodate the chapeloj, one with the special fonts, the other with 
> the x-system, a third with the h-system and the last with ASCII 
> characters. Nobody needs a language that can be written in four 
> different ways.
> 
Oh, you can write Esperanto in many more than four ways. For instance, 
you can write it in Cyrillic.

> http://www.ukflorenco2006.it/

I only count three -- H-, X- and Unicode (H- and X-, of course, use 
ASCII characters, unless one decides to quote a name or some such thing 
in some Western European language, in which case you have to go to 
Unicode or ISO-8859-1). However, the word "requires" is a bit excessive; 
that's a choice made by the Local Congress Committee in Florence, not 
something that was forced on them. If you go to the _official_ page of 
the UK, at UEA's site ( http://www.uea.org/kongresoj/uk_2006.html ), 
you'll find there's only the one (Unicode, with supersigns) variant.

Back when I set up my website, I wrote everything with X-convention for 
a year. Then times changed, and I started putting up duplicate pages in 
X- and Latin-3. Times changed again, and I went to Latin-3 and Unicode 
(my translation of "Tarzan of the Apes", which is available in all three 
variants, is something of an exception). Two or three years ago I 
dropped Latin-3 and now put everything up strictly in Unicode; these 
days, nothing else is necessary, since all current browsers handle 
Unicode without problems and all the major fonts available in at least 
Windows include all the Esperanto characters.

---

(*) The next conference I'm personally familiar with is the 
Tut-Kalifornia Esperanto-Konferenco next weekend, where I will be 
selling books for the Esperanto League for North America. As you may 
guess, TKEK has no authority to make any changes in Esperanto.

(**) With regard to adjective-noun agreement, I could quote Waringhien's 
argument about redundancy here. English is often quoted as an example of 
  a language that functions without such agreement; but as Waringhien 
points out, there is a second way of showing the plural of a noun 
phrase, at least in the present, and that is through the form of the 
verb, a distinction that both Esperanto and Ido have eschewed. The -J 
ending on the adjetive restores that lost redundancy -- though IMHO 
that's hardly the most important argument for adjective-noun agreement.

-- 
-- Don HARLOW
    http://donh.best.vwh.net/
    http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/Literaturo/Tarzan/
    http://www.harlows.org/don/

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