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AUXLANG  March 2006, Week 3

AUXLANG March 2006, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Towards a European Language?

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 19 Mar 2006 20:49:24 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (100 lines)

MacLeod Dave skribis je 2006.03.19 6.13 atm...

> No, that's fine. I think I might have been an Esperantist myself had I 
> been born at the same time as you when pretty much all other candidates 
> were dead / stillborn. I think it probably is true that they spent a lot 
> of time bemoaning their state, but I wasn't there so I'm not certain. 
> Your argument about Espo being to only candidate due to population 
> though is an argument for using a natlang; an IAL should be able to 
> claim with confidence that even with a small population that pure ease 
> of learning would smooth things over pretty quickly.

I won't dispute that argument, but the question arises: what are the 
_differences_ in ease of learning of the various IALs? Relatively few 
experiments have been done, and in terms of actual learning experience 
Esperanto is the only such language that has any significant data 
available for it, so comparisons aren't really possible.

I presume you've heard of Thorndyke's experiment, performed under the 
auspices of IALA back in -- what, the early thirties? Just in case you 
haven't: Thorndyke experimented in teaching the correlatives to two 
classes in a girls' school in New York. One class learned the Ido 
correlatives, while the other learned the Esperanto correlatives, during 
a single hour of instruction. The next day they were evaluated on their 
knowledge. As far as passive recognition was concerned, the Esperanto 
class did _slightly_, but not significantly, better. In terms of the 
ability to actively generate correlatives for the evaluation, the 
Esperanto class did approximately twice as well as the Ido class. (*)

Amusingly, in his report Thorndyke admitted that, going into the 
experiment, he expected the Ido class to do better, since the system 
they would be learning was "more natural" than that of Esperanto; he was 
as surprised as anyone at the result of the experiment.

(To the best of my knowledge Gode &c at IALA never addressed the result 
of Thorndyke's experiment when devising Interlingua.)

> Now that we're on the subject though I've found that Norwegian is a 
> great deal easier than English due to its mostly phoenetic nature, verb 
> conjugation, lack of cases on nouns and er...adjectival agreement. Not 
> as easy as an IAL but still pretty easy. Nouns have two genders but 
> because the large majority are of one gender, and so you really just 
> have to remember which ones have 'et' in front of them instead of 'en'. 
> Similarity to languages that have the largest native speaking population 
> in Europe is also a plus.
> 
Which Norwegian are we talking about? If it's the traditional variety 
(not Nynorsk, which is a planned language, and about which I know 
little), it would surprise me if the number of common gender nouns 
greatly exceeded the number of neuter gender nouns; while there _is_ a 
disparity in closely-related Danish, (**) it isn't all that great. For 
instance, opening Kofoed's "Teach Yourself Danish" (which I bought in 
1959 in preparation for my stint as an exchange student in beautiful 
downtown Randers, Denmark) at random and finding myself at a list of 
"Gloser" on page 70, I find eleven new nouns in the word list, as follows:

lommen (pocket)
molboen (an inhabitant of the Mols peninsula in Jutland)
stenen (stone)
soelvet (silver)
talet (number, figure)
viseren (hand -- of a clock?)
slaget (stroke)
middelalderen (the Middle Ages)
sekundet (second -- of time)
telefonen (telephone)
nummeret (number)

As you can see, in this word list the nouns are almost equally divided 
between common and neuter. (I haven't mentioned six compound nouns, 
three of them based on uret, clock, and three on tiden, time.) Again, I 
suspect that common nouns outnumber neuter nouns, but I think that 
applying the word "large" to "majority" is perhaps an exaggeration.

---

(*) The Ido system of correlatives is what linguists call "defective", 
if I remember correctly -- not in the sense that it won't work; all the 
ethnic-language correlative systems I've run across are equally 
"defective", and of course they do work -- but in the sense that to some 
extent it follows a rule or set of rules, but beyond that point abandons 
them in favor of a different rule or set of rules, or simply in favor of 
individual items to be memorized. The Esperanto system is, in this 
sense, not "defective", since the rule(s) remain(s) applicable through 
the entire system.

(**) There are real differences between Danish and Norwegian -- 
elsewhere you quote the standard Norwegian verb "at snakke", to talk or 
speak, which in Danish is considered substandard slang, as opposed to 
the standard "at tale" -- but to a great extent the difference between 
Danish and Norwegian Landsmaal is, like that between Hindi and Urdu or 
that between Serbian and Croatian, the result of the partitioning of the 
Kingdom of Denmark into Denmark and Norway -- which became part of 
Sweden -- early in the 19th century.

-- 
-- Don HARLOW
    http://donh.best.vwh.net/
    http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/Literaturo/Tarzan/
    http://www.harlows.org/don/

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