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CONLANG  March 2006, Week 3

CONLANG March 2006, Week 3

Subject:

Re: How to do "But/However"

From:

Eldin Raigmore <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 18 Mar 2006 11:14:03 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (160 lines)

[Replies to two messages.]
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 12:03:12 +0100, taliesin the storyteller <taliesin-
[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>* Eldin Raigmore said on 2006-03-15 23:17:41 +0100
>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 15:04:59 +0100, taliesin the storyteller <taliesin-
>>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
[snip]
>>>The difference in using "but" instead of "and" is that the "but" says
>>>that something else was expected than what actually happened.
>>>a) X and Y.
>>>b) X, expected Y but got Z.
>>>I thought of using "and" as usual with the second clause (the Z) marked
>>>with the counterfactual, but :) that seems wrong somehow.
>>May I suggest this is a job for the Mirative?
>>Much like your thought, mark the second clause (the Z), but, since it is
>>factual rather than counterfactual, instead of marking it Irrealis, mark
>>it "Mirative" -- meaning approximately "the speaker still wonders at it",
>>more precisely "the speaker still has not incorporated it into his/her
>>worldview".
>>So, if you expect X and Y, but get X and Z, you'd say, in effect:
>>"X and Z-MIR".
>
>Yes this does seem the most Taruvenian solution. X and Z-unexpected.
>This of course raises the question of what other affixes/clitics can
>share the position of "-unexpected", is it a mood, aspect, tense,
>evidential-source marker or evidential-certainty marker? 

>I suspect it's in its own category together with other markers for how
>the narrator sees the situation (together with unfortunately, hopefully,
>luckily etc.). I've seen a term for such a category somewhere but as
>usual I can't remember where, or what it was...

I'd say you're right, IMHO.  Also, I do not remember having ever seen that 
larger category called anything but "mood" or "mode" or "modality", 
although not everyone defines these the same way, so for some "speaker's 
attitude" is part of the three M's and for others it isn't.

Apparently writers who discuss both mirativity and evidentiality usually 
treat them together or one after the other.  When they discuss them with 
other things as well, they usually discuss them immediately after modality, 
modes, and moods.

If you adopt the common definition of a mood as "the speaker's attitude 
toward the truth of his/her remark", mirativity is clearly a mood.  If you 
adopt Joan Bybee's definition of a mood as "a marker of how the speaker 
intends the sentence to be incorporated into the discourse", I suppose 
neither evidentiality nor mirativity are moods.

Some writers distinguish a category which tells "what the speaker expects 
the addressee to do with the remark" (and I think this might be what Bybee 
meant by her definition of "mood").  Should the addressee believe it, doubt 
it, entertain it as a possibility or working-hypothesis, act on it, answer 
it?  Whatever this category is called, it seems to include "illocutionary 
force" (possible values of which include "imperative" and "interrogative"); 
but apparently also includes alethic and epistemic modes or modalities, as 
they are often defined. (It also seems to include deontic modality.)

Mirativity apparently wouldn't fit into that category, whatever it's called.

I think evidentiality and data-source could be considered a piece of 
epistemic modality, though apparently it usually isn't so considered. 
Epistemology asks and tries to answer the question "How can you know for 
sure?".  Epistemic modality is usually thought of as answering the question
"Just how sure are you, anyway?".  Evidentials, or data-source, answers 
the "How did you find out?" question; evidentiality is really closer to an 
encoding of epistemology, than "epistemic modality" is.


>(Which reminds me, I think I've forgotten to tell that the page on verbs
>is (finally! The first version of it was made in 1997!) up:
><http://taliesin.nvg.org/taruven/topic.html>)

Looks good.

>t.
>=========================================================================

On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:09:53 +0000, R A Brown <[log in to unmask]> 
wrote:
>Eldin Raigmore wrote:
>>On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 15:04:59 +0100, taliesin the storyteller <taliesin-
>>[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>[snip]
>>>3. Searching for but/however is rather pointless, so is there a
>>>good linguistic term?
>>Well, the Latin for "but" is "sed"; [snip]
>They were known as _adversatives_ (or, more fully, 'adversative
>conjunctions') when I was at school. Even now, 50 years later, I find in
>the on-line Merriam-Webster:
>the _adversative_ conjunction _but_

I was just going to say so, but I see Ray beat me to it.
In
http://www.mpi.nl/world/E-Nusantara/CI_keo.doc
Louise Baird quotes
"John Payne [Payne, J, 1985 #155:6-8]",
(a reference I have yet to identify), as follows.
"bhodo – ‘but’ 

The word bhodo has three functions: 1) a word meaning “empty; nothing; 
only,” 2) used as a discourse connector and 3) used as an adversative 
clausal conjunction. 

John Payne [Payne, J, 1985 #155:6-8] identifies three varieties of 
adversatives: semantic opposition, denial of expectation, and preventative. 
Denial of expectation adversatives imply “...given A, it might be expected 
that not B, nevertheless B holds” [Payne, J, 1985 #155:7].  All of the 
instances of bhodo in my data have a denial of expectation meaning.  
Sometimes it is used between clauses within the one sentence, and at other 
times bhodo is used to start a new sentence.  When bhodo is used to join 
two clauses within one sentence there is a slight, unfinished, intonation 
on the first clause and falling intonation at the end of the second 
clause.   

25) Kursus bordier mo’o wuda tedu wi’e, bhodo ke 
course embroidery going to month three only but that 
 
tungga dera rua wuda rua.  
enough day two month two

The embroidery course was going to be just three months, but two days a 
week for two months was enough. 
Bk4:057-078 

"


>
>Also "sed" is only one of _eight_ Latin words for 'but' (unless _uerum_
>& _uero_ are considered variants of the same word, then we have only
>seven adversatives):
>(a) Conjunctions that are placed first in clause
>SED
[snip]
>AT
[snip]
>ATQUI
[snip]
>CETERVM
[snip]
>(b) Usually placed second in clause, but sometimes placed first.
>TAMEN
[snip]
>(c) Conjunctions that are placed second in clause
>AVTEM
[snip]
>VERVM
[snip]
>VERO
>--
>Ray

Which of Latin's words most closely corresponds to Keo's "bhodo"?

Thanks, Ray.

>=========================================================================

eldin

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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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March 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
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June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 3
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March 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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February 2001, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 5
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