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CONLANG  April 2006, Week 3

CONLANG April 2006, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Inverse marking (was: Kijeb text uploaded)

From:

Benct Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 21 Apr 2006 15:00:57 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (243 lines)

Eldin wrote:

 > These languages are a subset of the alignment-type called
 > "hierarchical alignment". In such languages, the "word"-
 > order of the clause and the agreement marking on the verb
 > always puts that participant which is highest in the
 > hierarchy first, regardless of whether it is the agent or
 > the patient.  Thus some kind of "voice" marking on the verb
 > is necessary to indicate whether this agreed-with
 > participant is the agent or the patient.

That makes sense.  I'll introduce hierarchical word order in
Kijeb, lest the inverse marking seem somewhat redundant.
However Kijeb also has nom/acc case marking; I'm considering
to restrict the marked accusative to animates.

 > (The hierarchy in question is usually one of agent-potency
 > (that is, potentiality to be an agent), as opposed to topic-
 > worthiness, according to M.H.Klaiman.)

That also makes sense, according to how I understand
the whole animacy hierarchy business.  That's also
why I'ld consider not to mark the accusative on
inanimates: they'ld be patients by default, so to speak.
It also would help to make the introduction of an
ergative system in later stages of the language more
realistic.

 > ----------
 >
 > Most languages that have both an "inverse voice and direct
 > voice" system of grammatical voices, and also an "obviative"
 > person system, have inverse voice whenever the agent is
 > animate obviative third person and the patient is animate
 > proximative third person.

AFA I understand from Blake's book this is typical of
Algonquinian languages.  The question is if it is *so*
typically Algonquinian that it is unrealistic in a
non-Algonquinian language?  Though Kijeb is spoken in
another universe/timeline, so perhaps it doesn't matter.

BTW would it be unrealistic for the direct voice to
be unmarked?

 > That is, if a clause has two animate "third person"
 > participants, one of which is the "protagonist" and the
 > other a "bit player", Direct voice indicates that the
 > "protagonist" is the agent, while Inverse voice indicates
 > that the "protagonist" is the patient.

What about two *in*animate "third person" participants,
unlikely as it may seem, though you may say "the stone
hit the rock"...?

 > In such languages, Inverse vs Direct is about persons as
 > well as about genders (noun classes) or animacy.
 >
 > Languages with obviatives almost (?) all have an
 > Inverse/Direct Voice system, and languages with an
 > Inverse/Direct Voice system almost (?) all have a
 > Hierarchical "alignment" (rather than Accusative/Nominative
 > or Ergative/Absolutive or Split-S or Active/Stative or
 > Split-Ergative or Tripartite.)
 >
 > The "Obviative" is necessary in two-participant clauses in
 > which both participants are "third persons" -- that is,
 > _not_ speech-act participants - - and, especially, if also
 > both participants are animate.

Kijeb as it now is has no obviative pronouns, but it has a
distinction between proximate--medial--distal pronouns and
local adverbs which could be used in that function.

 > Grammarians of these languages basically divide clauses into ten types;
 > * I. One (or fewer) participant.
 > * I.A. The participant is a speech-act-participant (speaker
 > or addressee)
 > * I.B. The clause-participant is an animate "third person".
 > * I.C. The clause-participant is an inanimate "third
 > person".
 > * I.D. There aren't any participants in the clause.
 > * II. Two (or more) participants.
 > * II.A. Every participant is a speech-act-participant
 > (speaker or addressee)
 > * II.B. Every clause participant is an animate "third
 > person".
 > * II.C. Every clause participant is an inanimate "third
 > person".
 > * II.D. At least one clause-participant is a speech-act-
 > participant, and at  least one clause-participant is an
 > animate "third person".
 > * II.E. At least one clause-participant is a speech-act-
 > participant, and at  least one clause-participant is an
 > inanimate "third person".
 > * II.F. At least one clause-participant is an animate "third
 > person", and at  least one clause-participant is an
 > inanimate "third person".
 >
 > ---
 >
 > It is type II.C. in which obviation is especially important.
 >
 > --------------------
 >
 > eldin

Eldin also wrote in reply to Carsten:

 >
 > This is both very interesting for its own sake, and, quite
 > natlang-like in its split between the acc/nom and the
 > erb/abs parts of the system.  (BTW you are aware, aren't
 > you, that Split-S is a different thing from Split- Ergative,
 > and they occur independently of each other?)
 >
 > However, Split-S systems and Split-Ergative systems are not
 > the same as Hierarchical systems, even though the
 > "hierarchy" is intimately involved in deciding exactly where
 > the "split" in the Split-Ergative system will be.
 >
 > (In a Split-Ergative system, participants in some top
 > segment of the hierarchy are treated
 > Accusative/Nominatively, while participants in some
 > (possibly overlapping) bottom segment of the hierarchy are
 > treated Ergative/Absolutively.)
 >
 > (In a Split-S (Active/Stative) system, the single
 > participant of an Intransitive clause may be marked like an
 > Agent (ergative?), or may be marked like a Patient
 > (accusative?), depending. For instance, it may be marked
 > "Ergative" for "Active Verbs" and "Accusative" for "Stative
 > Verbs"; or it may depend on something else -- what it
 > depends on is language- specific.  If the same participant
 > can be marked either way (depending) for the same verb, it
 > is a Fluid-S system; some Fluid-S systems have _three_
 > possible "cases" or "voices" for intransitive clauses.)
 >
 > In a Hierarchical system, the verb always agrees with
 > whichever participant is highest in the Hierarchy,
 > _regardless_ of the case-role played by that participant.

I envisage Kijeb as something of a mixture, with both
Hierarchical word order and verb marking, as well as nom/acc
marking for animates, as well as Split-S/Fluid-S, and the
daughter languages (perhaps not all of them) developing
split ergative marking.  Perhaps it is altogether
unrealistic, or at least highly redundant, to have it all in
the same bag!

 > "I hit it" and "It hit me" will _both_ have 1st-person
 > agreement on the verb.
 >
 > They'll be something like:
 >
 > Hit-1-DIR I it
 > "I hit it"
 >
 > Hit-1-INV I it
 > "It hit me"
 >
 >
 > (BTW Hierarchical languages are probably not APV nor PAV,
 > nor VAP nor VPA, nor AVP nor PVA in "word-order type";
 > instead of mentioning Agents before Patients or vice-versa,
 > they always mention participants in the order of the
 > hierarchy, (or, I imagine for some languages, always in the
 > opposite order).  My examples here assume a verb-initial
 > language in which the highest-ranked participant is always
 > mentioned first.)

That makes sense.  I'll adopt that (although Kijeb is and
remains verb final).

<snip>

 > And I imagine there are other techniques as well; including,
 > perhaps, using some other alignment system (e.g. accusative
 > or ergative) just exactly in cases where both speech-act-
 > participants have roles -- but not the same role -- in the
 > clause.

I'm thinking along those lines.

 > ----
 >
 > The similarity between Direct Voice and Active Voice, and
 > between Inverse Voice and Passive Voice, is this;
 >
 > In an Inverse Voice system, the Direct Voice indicates that
 > the participant highest in the hierarchy is the Agent; while
 > in a Derived Voice system, the Active Voice indicates that
 > the participant in the Subject grammatical relation is the
 > Agent.
 >
 > In an Inverse Voice system, the Inverse Voice indicates that
 > the participant highest in the hierarchy is the Patient;
 > while in a Derived Voice system, the Passive Voice indicates
 > that the participant in the Subject grammatical relation is
 > the Patient.
 >
 > It is not clear to me whether it is reasonable to assume
 > that "the participant highest in the hierarchy" is "the
 > Subject".

According to Blake it is reasonable.  Subjects are likely
to be animate actors.

 > BTW I made (at least) two mistakes in my previous post on
 > this thread (quoted below).
 >
 > 1. There are 11, not 10, possible clause types; add:
 >
 > "II.G. At least one clause-participant is a speech-act-
 > participant, and at least one clause-participant is an
 > animate third person, and at least one clause-participant is
 > an inanimate third person."
 >
 > 2. It is "type II.B.", not "type II.C.", for which obviation
 > is most necessary.
 >
 > ----
 >
 > Also note;
 >
 > There won't be any type I.D. clauses in languages that don't
 > have "impersonal verbs";
 > and,
 > There won't be any type II.G. clauses in languages that
 > don't have "trivalent verbs".
 >

-- 


/BP 8^)>
-- 
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se

    a shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot

                                 (Max Weinreich)

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April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
April 1999, Week 4
April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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