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AUXLANG  June 2006, Week 4

AUXLANG June 2006, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Marking color, or plural above 5 (was: Tweaking Eo)

From:

Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 23 Jun 2006 12:10:08 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (175 lines)

Hi Larry,

It seems that you have agreed with the extreme part
of my point by saying that it is over the top to claim
that plural marking as as obsurd as purple-marking.
I want to be sure that you know that I agree with the
extreme part of your point -- that languages without
explicit plural marking can be just as expressive
simply by marking plural (or singular) when it is
necessary.

A few more random quotes and replies:
> Most European languages _require_ that the speaker
> indicate whether it's 1 or not-1. This makes as much
> sense to me as requiring that the speaker indicate
> whether it's 3 or not-3.

On a certain level, you are probably telling the
truth.  I suspect, though, that we all suffer from
errors in self-reporting.  We say, for example, that
gas economy is important to us, but when it's time
to buy a new car, we bypass the hatchback and get
another SUV.

I suspect it is much easier to demonstrate why 1 is
a special number than why 3 is a special number.
One is the difference between nothing and something.

> Telling me that there are more than 1 of something
> is useless unless more information is forthcoming...
> and if it is, then what's the point of a plural
> form?

Consider:
A - "There is a peanut in that bowl."
B - "There are peanuts in that bowl."
C - "There are peanut3 in that bowl."
D - "There is a number other than 3 peanuts ..."

A: You know that you could help yourself to the last
peanut, if you wanted to.
B: You know you could help yourself to a reasonable
sampling of peanuts.  When you think of "peanuts
in a bowl", you don't think of 2 or 100,000, but a
specific medium quantity, from wich you can take
a reasonable handfull for snacking.
C: You know that you have exactly 3 peanuts.
D: What do you know?  Should we think of a bowl of
peanuts or the "not nothing" peanuts?

How could a language with 3-marking (like in C and D)
even come to exist?

> Don't just tell me it's more than one; give me some
> idea of how many. (Don't just tell me the flower is
> non-purple; tell me what colour it _is_, at least
> with a bit more precision than "non-purple".)

"There are flowers in the field" does not mean two.
"Flowers in her hair" does not mean two.
"Look for the house with the wild violets" does not
mean two violet plants.

"We have problems" does not mean two problems.

Plural quite often does give you a general idea
about the number to expect.

> Why be required to give the information "more than
> one" without being required to give some sense of
> the magnitude?

Because the real world is not abstract math.

Kjell wrote:
> if you say: I have got mouse in kitchen. I put trap
> and catch mouse. But ten minutes later I notice
> mouse individ. Hm, not only one. There is many.

Again, I'm not saying that you can't express my mouse
story in a language without plurals.  I'm saying that
there is something about the way we look at the world
which leads us to think that if there is one thing, it
could be unique.  If we see two, we are likely to
assume that there are many. This goes for many things,
not just mice.

Come to think of it, we have a word for "unique", but
not binique or trinique.  I think this too speaks to
the fact that one is indeed a special number.

Quoting Larry again:
> I don't see a big problem with a noun being
> inherently singular and then enumerated for
> quantities other than 1. , etc. I just don't see
> a reason for the enumerator that means "any quantity
> in the universe greater than 1" to have a form that
> is far more accessible than other enumerators, like
> "3", "a few", "scads", "zero", "9.29", "at least a
> dozen", etc.

Okay, say we talk about one car, two car, three car,
twenty car.  What about a bowl of peanuts?  Would you
say "There's a bunch of peanut in that bowl"?  (Since
simply "there's peanut in that bowl" would mean one,
by default.)  How natural is it for people to estimate
quantities such as the number of peanuts in a bowl?
They make carnival games out of that.

> Implicit singularity (which would be an
> excellent name for a rock band, BTW)

They could open for my band -- The Daft Hats.


> I'm trying to imagine real situations where I would
> use the plural but would not automatically provide
> a more specific enumerator as well:

There are peanuts on the table and chips in the bag
in the cupboard.
My cat has fleas.
The floor is covered with toys.

> > The point of this story was to show that when I'd
> > seen one mouse, I thought I had one mouse.  When
> > I saw two mice, I knew I had many mice.
>
> Maybe you had many. Maybe two. Maybe a few.

No.  My point is that having seen MICE, I knew that
I had MICE.  The mice that I saw numbered two, and
that signaled to me that I didn't just have two mice,
but a bunch.

> But it's in the nature of having mice (or wolves!)
> that if you see one mouse, you ought not expect that
> you have only the one.

Not true.  I have also had "a mouse" (in a different
kitchen, many years later.)  This second time I was
more cautious than to assume that I had only one, but
it turned out to be a rogue.

Some animals do hunt solo.  Perhaps wolf was a bad
example, but the fact remains that if you have one
enemy and he's in sight, you should keep your eyes
on him.  If you have plural enemies and see one,
you still have to watch your back - whether it's
two or a hundred.  Here the plural-singular
distinction has a discreet effect on your reaction.

> If I were telling an acquaintance that I had mice,
> I can't imagine feeling the need to convey that it
> was more than one without feeling the need also
> to convey some information about the magnitude.

I can imagine it just fine.  Hey Larry, when I was
in New Paltz, I had mice.  I got rid of them.
Later, in Rochester, I had a mouse, but I got rid
of it right away.

Whoops... no more time.  More later ... if you
can stand it.  :-)

Amike salutas,
Thomas/Tomaso ALEXANDER.
www.NightinGael.Net
---Anything below this line is not from Thomas ---

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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