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AUXLANG  June 2006, Week 4

AUXLANG June 2006, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Marking color, or plural above 5 (was: Tweaking Eo)

From:

Larry Sulky <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:31:32 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (230 lines)

On 6/23/06, Thomas Alexander <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Doctor, I think we're getting somewhere with my problem!

>
> I suspect it is much easier to demonstrate why 1 is
> a special number than why 3 is a special number.
> One is the difference between nothing and something.

Yes, 1 is more special than 3. And distinguishing between them is
fine. But failing to distinguish between 3 and 3,000 is not fine. But
see my Dawning Realisation below....!

>
> > Telling me that there are more than 1 of something
> > is useless unless more information is forthcoming...
> > and if it is, then what's the point of a plural
> > form?
>
> Consider:
> A - "There is a peanut in that bowl."
> B - "There are peanuts in that bowl."
> C - "There are peanut3 in that bowl."
> D - "There is a number other than 3 peanuts ..."
>
> A: You know that you could help yourself to the last
> peanut, if you wanted to.
> B: You know you could help yourself to a reasonable
> sampling of peanuts.  When you think of "peanuts
> in a bowl", you don't think of 2 or 100,000, but a
> specific medium quantity, from wich you can take
> a reasonable handfull for snacking.
> C: You know that you have exactly 3 peanuts.
> D: What do you know?  Should we think of a bowl of
> peanuts or the "not nothing" peanuts?

Ahaa!

<DawningRealisation>You, and I think Todd, associate an implicit
enumeration with the plural form, which Literal Larry (that's me) does
not do. Todd was trying to tell me that before but it wasn't sinking
in (of course, since I don't do that).</DawningRealisation>

If you tell me "there are peanuts in the bowl", you mean [B] above and
you expect me to understand that too. Maybe not chock-full of peanuts,
but at least enough for me to have a snack. That's supposed to be our
shared expectation. But I haven't been cooperating!

So (I aver) you and Todd (and most folks?) have the concept of: (a)
singular; (b) expected plural -- the reasonable amount that you and
most people would expect based on context; and (c) unexpected plural
-- where you would feel compelled to further enumerate (even if
grammatically you also had to apply the plural form to the noun), and
failure to further enumerate would be considered by you to be
misleading or inaccurate.

Whereas I would see nothing surprising or misleading about being told
that there are peanuts in the bowl and finding only four there, or
that it's absolutely overflowing...since (to my mind) you hadn't
stated _or even implied_ otherwise. And if I were the peanut provider,
I wouldn't tell you merely that there are peanuts in the bowl; I would
assume you would need more information: "plenty of peanuts"; "only a
few peanuts, sorry"; "enough peanuts to tide you over"; "some
peanuts"; "one measly peanut".

Am I at least getting close to where our disconnect is, do you think?

I've probably mentioned this before in other contexts, but I
_frequently_ fail to build the picture from context that other folks
expect I should build, and they find it so incredible that they rather
believe I'm just being ornery or contrary.

>
> How could a language with 3-marking (like in C and D)
> even come to exist?

Almost certainly it couldn't. Unless I were boss.... ;-)

>
> > Don't just tell me it's more than one; give me some
> > idea of how many. (Don't just tell me the flower is
> > non-purple; tell me what colour it _is_, at least
> > with a bit more precision than "non-purple".)
>
> "There are flowers in the field" does not mean two.

I'll grant you that.

> "Flowers in her hair" does not mean two.

In fact, I would readily believe that it does. My expectation would be
any number from 2 to about as many flowers as will fit in her hair. In
other words, such a large class that it seems/seemed pointless to me
to call out a single flower in her hair as a special case.

> "Look for the house with the wild violets" does not
> mean two violet plants.

Ditto.

>
> "We have problems" does not mean two problems.

Ditto.

>
> Plural quite often does give you a general idea
> about the number to expect.

I think it does for me, but not as often or as specifically as for
you. But I'm a man...and I can change...if I have to...I guess.
[Canadian pop culture reference.]

>
> > Why be required to give the information "more than
> > one" without being required to give some sense of
> > the magnitude?
>
> Because the real world is not abstract math.

"Eek! Larry, I saw mice!"
"Oh?! How many?"
"Mice! Mouses! More than one! You know... _mice_!"
"But...two? 10? A colony? Can I handle this on my--"
"Stop being dense and CALL THE EXTERMINATOR!"
"Yes, Dear."

>
> Kjell wrote:
> > if you say: I have got mouse in kitchen. I put trap
> > and catch mouse. But ten minutes later I notice
> > mouse individ. Hm, not only one. There is many.
>
> Again, I'm not saying that you can't express my mouse
> story in a language without plurals.  I'm saying that
> there is something about the way we look at the world
> which leads us to think that if there is one thing, it
> could be unique.  If we see two, we are likely to
> assume that there are many. This goes for many things,
> not just mice.

Truly, if I see only one, I am just as likely to assume that there are
many. Unless it's the Taj Mahal, in which case, even if I see two, I'm
likely to assume that it's binique.

---SNIP---
>
> > I'm trying to imagine real situations where I would
> > use the plural but would not automatically provide
> > a more specific enumerator as well:
>
> There are peanuts on the table and chips in the bag
> in the cupboard.
> My cat has fleas.
> The floor is covered with toys.

I didn't phrase that well. I was trying to imagine using plurals not
because of grammatical convention but because it was important to
indicate "more than one" but not important to indicate whether a few,
several, a huge number, etc. In these three examples, context, not the
plural or singular form, tells me how many of each item to expect. The
plural doesn't give me any information that I don't already have, and
you could just as well have used the singular.

(But just now I thought of something: if you use a plural form where a
singular would have been expected, or vice versa, you may very well be
conveying additional information. "There's a peanut on the table? I'll
clean it off." "There are peanuts on the table? Great, I'm hungry.")


---SNIP---

> No.  My point is that having seen MICE, I knew that
> I had MICE.  The mice that I saw numbered two, and
> that signaled to me that I didn't just have two mice,
> but a bunch.

I would get that signal from one mouse.

>
> > But it's in the nature of having mice (or wolves!)
> > that if you see one mouse, you ought not expect that
> > you have only the one.
>
> Not true.  I have also had "a mouse" (in a different
> kitchen, many years later.)  This second time I was
> more cautious than to assume that I had only one, but
> it turned out to be a rogue.

"Rogue Mouse" would also be a good name.... never mind.

>
> Some animals do hunt solo.  Perhaps wolf was a bad
> example, but the fact remains that if you have one
> enemy and he's in sight, you should keep your eyes
> on him.  If you have plural enemies and see one,
> you still have to watch your back - whether it's
> two or a hundred.  Here the plural-singular
> distinction has a discreet effect on your reaction.

This is true if my relationship with the world is such that I deal
with one-on-one situations in one way and one-on-more-than-one
situations in a single bimodally different way. I aver that one-on-two
is more like one-on-one than it is like one-on-100.

>
> > If I were telling an acquaintance that I had mice,
> > I can't imagine feeling the need to convey that it
> > was more than one without feeling the need also
> > to convey some information about the magnitude.
>
> I can imagine it just fine.  Hey Larry, when I was
> in New Paltz, I had mice.  I got rid of them.

But how many? Did you need an exterminator? A priest? Or was it just a
few? What was the situation???

But I'm truly beginning to understand that if you say you had mice,
you mean more than one but not, like, a hundred. Maybe dozens?

> Later, in Rochester, I had a mouse, but I got rid
> of it right away.
>
> Whoops... no more time.  More later ... if you
> can stand it.  :-)

I'm working out my contextual muscles...I'll let you know. ;-)

--larry

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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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