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AUXLANG  June 2006, Week 4

AUXLANG June 2006, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Options (might have been: Living without plurals)

From:

Rex May <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:21:33 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (89 lines)

On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 17:29:51 -0700, Donald J. HARLOW <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>As someone who enjoys, from time to time, both writing original
>material in and translating into Esperanto, I like the idea of
>optional features (e.g., whether or not to express a plural _qua_
>plural). This gives the writer lots of, you should excuse the term,
>options, and allows him to vary his style in comfortable and
>clarifying ways. (This, incidentally, is one reason I _love_ the -N
>ending, which allows me to reorganize sentences in ways that make
>them more clear to the reader -- the optional organization of basic
>sentence structure is, IMHO, one of Esperanto's greatest strengths.)
>
>As someone who spends a lot of time speaking in Esperanto, carrying
>on ordinary conversations in the language (and ignoring dirty looks
>from adjoining restaurant tables whose patrons apparently believe
>that not only should everybody living in the United States _be able_
>to speak English, but that they should voluntarily speak nothing but
>that language), I _hate_ optional features. That may be pretty much
>why a far larger portion of my spoken sentences than of my written
>sentences are SVO; when speaking, optional features just get in the way.

They probably think you're speaking Spanish, Don, which a lot of
Usonanoj these days are quick to resent, for obvious reasons.  Now, if
you spoke Ceqli at these meetings, they'd probably think you were a
Vulcan or something, and show more respect.

>
>When you speak, language becomes a pretty much ignored substratum;
>it's not quite the same as it is to the writer who consciously
>manipulates it to get the effects he wants. The person speaking is
>very much like the person driving a car on an uncrowded freeway; most
>of the time he's in autopilot mode, as far as the language is
>concerned. When he has to stop and think about how to express
>something, it's an unwanted interruption in the task he has actually
>undertaken -- expressing a thought to someone else.

Very good insight.  Sort of distinction we don't talk about much here, and
an important one.
>
>What this means is that when you introduce an "optional" feature, to
>satisfy those speaking the language you also have to introduce a set
>of rules that allows the language-manipulating part of the mind to
>automagically make the right choice in the middle of conversation,
>without interrupting the conversation; in other words, the choice has
>to be made unconsciously. And even with a set of rules to make such
>decisions, they have to be internalized by the would-be speaker
>before they will function properly.

I think you're right in part, here, but I think 'optionality' can mean something
more common than what you're talking about here.   Take sex.  Going with
pre-generalized Eo, you're in this restaurant and you've been waiting.

You: "Kie estas la kelnero?"

Maitre d':  "Ne estas kelneroj cxi tie.  Ni havas nur kelnerinojn."

You:  "Tre komike.  Kie estas la kelnerino?  Ekde nun, mi cxiam diros 'gekelnero'.


>
>With small children, of course, this internalization occurs
>automatically ... over a period of years. Grown-ups learning a
>language have a bigger problem; they have to carry out this
>internalization in a relatively short period of time, if possible,
>and to a great extent many never really succeed. Ditto, and more so,
>when the language to be learned is an IAL, and you hardly have the
>option of being thrown into an immersion environment where practice,
>practice, practice will help you internalize those rules.
>
>Internalization, of course, becomes somewhat easier as the rules get simpler.
>
>So when devising your language and thinking about an optional
>feature, ask yourself: am I doing this for
>
>(a) my own personal preferences (or prejudices), without
>consideration to any potential users of the language?
>
>(b) Don Harlow, who is about to sit down and translate "Tarzan of the
>Apes" into my language, and who, in his role as translator, will
>appreciate my optional feature?

That is my dream.  

"TARZANZO HU TO SIMYAN, begerbolfa donzo harlozo"
>
>(c) the average potential _speaker_ of the language, who will have no
>use whatsoever for any feature that requires him to make a conscious
>choice as to whether or not to use it?

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