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AUXLANG  June 2006, Week 5

AUXLANG June 2006, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Conversation Survey (was: Tweaking Eo)

From:

Bob Petry <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:11:55 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (112 lines)

On 29 Jun 2006 at 14:36, Donald J. HARLOW wrote:

> Je 10.13 atm 2006.06.29, Thomas ALEXANDER skribis
> 
[kut]
> 
> >I'm wondering what the difference is between using
> >Occidental to understand French and using, say,
> >Italian to understand French.  One may argue (indeed,
> >one has, and I've heard the arguments) that this or
> >that Auxlang is better suited to such use than
> >Italian is, but the extent of this has never been
> >quantified in any way.  I suspect the quantity in
> >question is fairly small (Don Harlow might argue
> >based on Ionel's comments that the quantity is zero),
> >and yet with Italian you have the added advantage of
> >being able to communicate seamlessly with Italians.

I would suggest this possibility. Italian is not geared to communicate with French, just 
because it is classified in the "same" group of languages.

Occidental works because it was designed to work this way. And, there was real intent in its 
creation to work that way.

Let's take the Morocco fellow as an example.

He spoke Arabic, French and German.

Now, the folks at the station spoke English, a language partially made with French and 
German. Thus, under the above question, i.e. French and Italian, the folks there should 
have been able to communicate with him in English and he in French. But, that is virtually 
impossible, for one, the American ear is not trained to hear other languages. For example, 
the word "have". In other languages where this word shows up it is "ha-vay" versus "hav". 
Thus, such words do not cross over easily in hearing, whereas in writing they might be 
picked up.

English and French cross talk is not easy, neither is English and German, etc.

However, if someone recognized the "common" links in such a way as to make it possible, 
or at least "easier", then they would come up with a truly INTER-national, or INTER-
language language. That is one of the ways Occ was designed. Whether this is the perfect 
INTER- language is the question.

Italian and French have several verb endings, for example that Occ does not have. Same 
with German and others that Occ can INTER-work with.

I do not know of another IAL that is specifically designed to work this way. All the others I 
know of personally, are generally based on simple grammar, simple spelling, etc. But, 
because of that, this kind of structure practically demands the learning of a new language, 
only "simpler".

Occ does not demand this effort for much of the world of the West. Why? Because you 
don't really have to learn it as a separate language. You take your own native language, 
make some simple changes and it becomes an IAL that can be used with other languages 
like your language. This is much simpler and more practical in _my_ mind. Again, I agree 
others may or will disagree on my viewpoint.

Let me give you an example of just one word.

The word "have" is in English have, or had. To me, that is my native language. So, why 
should I learn another word for the word have, IF I can find a way to use it so another 
language speaker can understand it?

So, what do I need to do to make the word "international"? Well, I know that if I use "had" 
that the person, without English, would more than likely not understand the word.

And, I know, generally, that if I use "hav" they might not understand. So, what do I do?

Well, I use the continental pronunciation of the letters, and I make every vowel and 
consonant into a separate sound. So, instead of hav, I must say havay, or havey. So far, so 
good, but now I want to say I had a book. Well, I use one of the keys and put -t on the end 
and say havet. This keeps the conjugation simple, and over a couple sentences or so, the 
hearer who is used to verb conjugation, picks up I mean past tense.

Basically, all I have to do is take English, make some simple changes and now I can 
communicate with others who don't know English. If I am a French person, I take my 
French, change the pronunciation a slight amount, and use my known vocabulary and 
change it with the keys, or if I am Italian, same thing. Etc. Thus, one can use their own 
language as the basis for communication among twelve, and possibly a few more, language 
groups and can be understood.

When one makes those changes and someone in the IAL arena sees or hears us, they say, 
oh, you're using Occidental. They never say, oh, you're using your language with some 
basic changes to write or speak to someone else.

As I say, I know of no other IAL that was designed with this idea as the main framework. 
This is why Occidental works the way it does, and how it was designed.

Does this work with Japanese, Chinese, Arabic? Etc? Not generally, unless that speaker has 
also studied one of the languages that can be changed with the Occ keys. But, if they do 
learn English, for example, which is most common, probably, then they can use the English, 
modify it with the keys, and speak with a multitude of Europeans, etc.

This is why any IAL that goes in certain directions always ends up heading in the direction of 
"Occidental". And, for some reason, everyone seems to think this is a bad thing. But, this is 
why, for example, Jespersen turned his language, later, into a form closer to what we call 
Occidental, and one of his lead followers ended up before dying writing a grammar on 
Occidental.

Well, nuff,
Bob




> 
> I'm not sure what quantity we're talking about here, but I will 
> reiterate earlier comments of mine that, as far as I can tell, 
> naturalistic Romance IALs such as Occidental and Interlingua 
> basically fall into the same linguistic ecological niche as, e.g., 
> Italian and Portuguese.

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