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AUXLANG  June 2006, Week 5

AUXLANG June 2006, Week 5

Subject:

All roads lead to Romance

From:

Bob Petry <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:51:41 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (104 lines)

Thomas Alexander scrit:

"I have no doubt that Bob has found value in learning
Occidental. Where I must take issue is in the claim
that the value here is undeniably different (or even
better) than the value obtained other ways. Some
Interlinguans will claim that studying Esperanto is
worthless unless you want to talk with Esperantists,
yet without Esperanto, I would not understand
Interlingua. Bob has claimed (at least indirectly)
that his ability to converse with that Morrocan man
is better with Occidental than if he's spent the same
amout of time learning a little French, a little
German, a little, Italian, and a little Spanish, and
perhaps a chunk of Esperanto while he's at it. Given
the quality of materials available for these languages
this is difficult to believe. I've learned at least
as much Interlingua listening to French tapes in my
car and by reading jelly jars at breakfast as I've
learned through other methods."

I have seen no proof yet that Occidental is just a fluke that works just for me.
One thing that should be added to the story about the Morocco fellow is that at the station 
are staff members who speak Spanish. Miguel Ortega being one of them at the time. 
Spanish was tried with the fellow before I jumped in with Occidental. 
=====================================================


Let me also throw this in the mix. Although, to most it will not carry any weight.

I have virtually every Kosmoglott and Cosmoglotta printed, except for the last couple years 
before the recent publications in the late 1990's and 2000's.

Plus, I have several of the grammars produced in different languages, and lessons in 
different language teaching Occ. Plus, many many copies of other publications printed in 
Occ including actual advertising brochures and letters, etc.

In reading all this material over the past ?? years, I have come to certain understandings 
about the system called Occ. And, I have read in those issues comments and debates pro 
and con. ie, just like an in print auxlang list.

Because of that, I feel that the majority of comments about Occ here and elsewhere are "ill-
informed" about the language, and that most of the criticisms come from the critics from the 
beginning, but not based on explanations given by actual Occidental adherents, and 
certainly de Wahl's writings have been distorted.

I can give examples, but they won't help.

What I can say it this. People who are not supposed to understand the language, as 
presented on this and other lists, actually do understand it quite well with just very little 
effort.

Secondly, it is a total distortion to claim that Occ is based on English and that I therefore 
can understand it. It is based on what have been labeled, right or wrongly, as international 
words. Therefore, it is NOT based on English, French, German, Russian, Spanish, Italian, 
Swedish, etc. It is based on words that are found in multiple major languages. And, there is 
a simple rule on how to find these words.

In fact, according to de Wahl's explanation, and others who taught and wrote Occidental, 
Occidental is not a romance language. Yet, no one wants to believe de Wahl who put it 
together based on principles he found. Everyone wants to claim de Wahl is spoofing us and 
that it is romance, but that is strictly because, surprisingly or not, a person sees in 
Occidental the language groups he/she is familiar with.

For instance, early on de Wahl also had to explain that it was not a germanic language 
because many familiar with German who were Espists and Idoists, etc. at the time claimed it 
was a German language. They looked at his work from their eyes, not from his, nor from his 
actual method of building Occidental.

The reason for this is the _design_ of Occidental. It was deliberately designed to be familiar 
to certain language groups. That is why it is an INTER-language. It looks and feels like the 
language the reader/hearer is familiar with, his/her native language. Oriental languages 
obviously excepted.

Until the critics of Occ decide they will positively look into the actual design of, the principles 
behind, and the explanations of Occidental by its actual author, they will never understand 
it. The problem is trying to make it fit one's own perspective and preference. For instance, 
Don claimed, against de Wahl's own explanation from the beginning, that Occ had three 
conjugations, -ir, -er, -ar. This is totally and diametrically opposite to how de Wahl designed 
the language, how he explained it, and how he used it. Occidental only one conjugation no 
matter what anyone else says. You cannot make the author say something he didn't say 
because one wants to see it in a certain way after the fact.

The one conjugation in Occidental is -r. That's it. Period. To say otherwise is to try and 
make de Wahl a "fibber" and a man who didn't even know the "language" he personally 
developed.

One conjugation and no more. And, his explanation of why and how is a much better and 
concise and responsible explanation than all the naysayers who don't want it to be that way.

Remove the -r and you have the present tense.
Add a -t to what is left and you have the past tense.

That's it. But, critics can't leave it at that. They must find fault with this and say de Wahl 
really had the -er, -ir, -ar, but didn't want to admit it, but "we in our knowledge of national 
grammars" know better than the creator of the language.

Anyway, Occidental works, was designed from a different framework than other IAL's, and 
has been copied to some extent, but always with denial that it was done.

Finally, one does not have to learn a new language with Occidental. One only tweaks 
his/her own language as long as it is in one of the 12-16+ language groups Occ was 
designed to be used with.

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