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CONLANG  August 2006, Week 1

CONLANG August 2006, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Second person/polite pronouns (fuit Re: Another Ozymandias)

From:

Jonathan Knibb <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:58:35 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (59 lines)

I wrote:
JK> Familiarity is the simplest, and takes only two values. One is used
JK> exclusively for second person, while the other generally means first
JK>  person, except that in relationships of great intimacy (typically
JK> spouses or close relatives) the first-person form may be used for
JK> second person as well (A and S are sufficient to disambiguate).

and And Rosta wrote:
AR> How do A and S disambiguate? One would expect them to be symmetrical &
AR> default/neutral in intimate relationships...

Often they are - but not in a parent-child relationship, where both speakers 
would use A-high for the parent and A-low for the child. Also, any intimate 
relationship is likely to adopt the default situation with respect to S, 
where each speaker refers to himself with S-low and the other with 
S-neutral, so this disambiguates in any case.

JK> Authority and servility each take three values, low, default and
JK> high. [...]
AR> What about High1--High2, Low1--Low2, High1--Default2, D1--H2, L1--D2,
AR> D1--L2?

Certainly, many different combinations are possible. You have to see it on 
two levels though. The two speakers may adopt the same view of their 
relationship, or may disagree to a greater or lesser extent. Each speaker's 
attitude will motivate their choice of pronouns. There are several 
conventionalised patterns for A and for S (some of which are described in 
the last post), and most of the time a speaker will choose one of them, 
although they may form new ones on the fly if necessary.

AR> So High S 1st person would always be imperious/haughty? What would
AR> the difference between H1--L2 and H1--D2 be?

It would be such an extreme display of high social status to refer to 
yourself with high S that it's difficult to imagine that person referring to 
anyone else by anything but the lowest possible S (it's like using an 
honorific intended for 2nd person with your own name or 1st-person pronoun). 
I suppose it might occur if a monarch who always used high-S first person 
met a monarch of another country - they might not feel able to give up 
high-S 1st person (demeaning themselves in the eyes of their people) but 
would feel obliged to use at least default-S (maybe even high-S) for the 
visiting dignitary.

AR> Do incongruous combinations of F, A and S exist? If so, are they left
AR> unused due to their incongruity and lack of applicability to
AR> circumstances in normal life? Or are they exapted into some more utile
AR> function?

Fascinating question. I haven't explored that in detail. I'm inclined to 
think that even the most unlikely combinations would not be exapted, just 
very rarely used.

Thanks for your interest!
Jonathan.

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