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CONLANG  September 2006, Week 3

CONLANG September 2006, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Stress placement systems

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:18:01 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (246 lines)

H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 07:55:04PM +0100, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>>It appears in fact to have been similar to the pitch system of Vedic
>>Sanskrit. But alas the Greeks were less clear in their descriptions
>>than the ancient Indian phoneticians were.
> 
> 
> That's very interesting. Perhaps they are relics of a pitch accent
> system in PIE?

That would seem to suggest it. But, alas, I have not kept up with the 
latest thinking on PIE. I note that 'Stress System Database' gives:
{quote}
Indo-European (protolanguage) 	12..89/1L 		Halle & Vergnaud 1987:72 
Syllable "weight" determined by lexical accent
{unquote}

I note "weight" is put between quotes which suggests to me that it has 
nothing to do with syllabic quantity. But there is no reference to a 
pitch accent.

Maybe others on the list are more informed regarding PIE word accent.

[snip]
>>
>>I don't know of the top of my head, but they were originally
>>introduced by the Alexandrian grammarians of the 2nd cent BCE as aids
>>to pronounce Homer correctly (Epic dialect);
>  
> How much does Homer differ from Attic in this respect (accents)?

Much the same - which, I guess, is why conventionally texts in other 
dialects, e.g. Doric, are normally printed with the same accentuation. 
It is assumed that anciently all dialects had much the same pitch accent 
  system.

[snip]
> 
>>As for Aeolic, we are told by IIRC more than one authority that they
>>treated all words according to the 'recessive accent' system of Greek
>>verbs.
>  
> Cool. I wonder what caused the differentiation.

Simplification, I suspect.

Besides verbs, there were also some sets of nouns & adjectives that used 
the recessive accent, and many vocatives did also. I guess the Aeolians 
simply extended this to all words, thus dispensing with the apparently 
arbitrary lexical positionings of the pitch.

We should perhaps explain for those who know little or no ancient Greek 
that the term 'recessive accent' referred to a system whereby the pitch 
accent a word was placed as far back from the end as the final _vowel_ 
(*not* syllable) allowed, i.e. if final vowel was short, the accent was 
third from the end, and if it was long the accent was on the preceding 
vowel. Diphthongs were normally treated as long, but _final_ -ai and -oi 
were treated as short.

The recessive accent was, therefore, phonologically determined. Of 
course when the system of long and short vowels broke down during the 
Hellenistic period, the verb accent of Koine remained in the same place, 
but it was no longer phonologically conditioned and we have a 
morphologically conditioned accent.

That stress accent of modern Greek is lexically & morphologically 
determined (and not determined by syllabic weight).

> 
>>>Also, how confident are we that Koine continues to use pitch
>>>accents?
>>
>>I am sure the Greeks themselves were still using pitch accent and I
>>suspect the more discerning L2 speakers tried to do things properly -
>>but the change took place during this period.
>  
> Ahhh, I see. So the foreigners substituted stress for pitch, and
> eventually the natives also started adopting it. Hmm, this gives me
> con-world ideas. :-)

Sort of - but I suspect there was a more complicated inter-reaction 
between L1 and L2 speakers over the whole period. But I feel sure the 
internationalization of Greek was a main factor in bringing about this 
change.

[snip]
>>Graffiti at Pompeii where some Greek words are written in Roman script
>>show quite clearly that fricativization had already occurred in
>>colloquial speech by the middle of the 1st cent CE.
> 
> Wow, this is interesting. I hadn't expected it to have happened this
> early. I remember reading a hypothesis that perhaps it had begun even in
> Classical times: is this plausible, or do we know for sure that it came
> later?

There are hints that it may have begun in some dialects as early as 
Classical times. For example:
- the Athenians mocked the Spartans because they said things like 'sios' 
instead of 'theos' "god". That is, the Lakonian dialect had _s_ where 
Attic and others has _th_. I has been speculated that this Lakonian _s_ 
was in fact [T].
- there is some evidence that in Boeotian, Elean & Pamphylian the voiced 
plosives had developed a fricative pronunciation by the 4th cent BCE. 
(e.g. using vau ('digamma') where we would expect beta).

[snip]

> Now, something I've always wondered about is why [p^h] fricativizes to
> [f] rather than [P]. Or perhaps [P] was an intermediate form that
> eventually became [f]?

It may well have been, we have no way of telling.

> 
> 
>>As for stress accent - we do not have clear evidence that stress
>>accent was the norm until the 4th cent CE; but there are indications
>>as early as the 2nd cent CE that transition from pitch to stress had
>>begun.
> 
> 
> I see. So basically it started around Hellenistic times, or going into
> the Byzantine period.

Yep - by the Byzantine period the stress system was the norm as far as 
we can tell.

[snip]
>>
>>But the Erasmian pronunciation, though considerably closer, to the
>>ancient, is only a makeshift. Whether one uses Erasmian or modern
>>pronunciation, it is normal to use the modern stress system.
> 
> 
> That's true. How confident are we about the actual values of vowels in
> Classical Greek, though? (I understand the reconstructed values are not
> quite the same as the Erasmic?)

Correct - as I understand it, Erasmus's reconstruction was closer to 
Koine than Classical Attic. We cannot, of course, be 100% confident 
about any ancient reconstruction but the evidence for the approximate 
vowel & diphthong values of Attic is fairly strong. I would suggest 
getting hold of Sidney Allen's "Vox Graeca" (ISBN 0521040213 [hardback],
0521335558 [paperback]).

> Now, during my Koine course, I was told that there is evidence even in
> the New Testament itself that itacization was starting to happen (e.g.
> with some words misspelling iota for eta). 

Well, |ei| (epsilon-iota) had become the same as 'long iota' [i:] by the 
3rd century BCE. The process had clearly begun earlier as we see 
confusions in spelling between |ei| ~ |i| in the late 4th cent BCE. 
AFAIK confusion in spelling between eta & iota don't occur until about 
150 CE,

> I'm curious about the extent
> of this, and whether the loss of the optative has something to do with
> the collapse of /oi/ to [i].

/oi/ became /y/ first. Confusion between |oi| and |y| (upsilon) is 
certainly found in the 3rd cent CE; there is evidence that the change of 
/oi/ to /y/ had already occurred in Boeotian as early as the 3rd cent BCE.

But AFAIK there is no evidence of confusion of /oi/ and /i:/ in Koine 
until the unroundng of /y/ in the Byzantine period, probably around the 
end of the millennium CE.

I suspect restricted use of the optative in Koine (it is used in the New 
Testament) was part of process of simplification. in fact in Classical 
language:
- it could be used instead of indicatives in subordinate clauses if the 
main verb was past. writers like Xenophon did this, but others like 
Plato & Thucydides did not and simply used the indicative.
- it could be used instead of the subjunctive in subordinate clauses if 
the main verb was past. Writers like Thucydides ignored this.
- it was used in remote or unlikely future conditions (If I were to 
become president of the USA, I would ... etc  ).
- to express wishes relating to the future (Oh that he would come!)

Quite simply the optional uses of optative in subordinate clauses after 
main verbs in past tense was simply dropped. Why keep a complicated 
option when a simpler choice is available?

The use of the optative in conditions is rare in Koine - the use of 
_ean_ plus subjunctive for the protasis & simple future for apodosis 
suffices for any future condition. It still holds on to express wishes. 
But such a limited use was almost certain to lead to the dropping of the 
mood and other ways of expressing wishes being developed.

> Also, I understand that the iota subscript wasn't actually used until
> Byzantine times, correct? 

Correct - it was a Byzantine practice.

> In uncial writing it was written as long vowel
> + iota --- my question is, was it actually pronounced in Koine, or had
> it become irrelevant already? What about in Classical times?

Certainly pronounced in Classical times. But confusion in spelling 
between eta-iota and epsilon-iota occurs as early as the 4th cent BCE; 
it seems that with long-alpha+iota and omega-iota the iota had become 
silent by the 2nd cent BCE.

[snip]

> How well-described is the Vedic system? 

I'm not certain, but Panini IIRC does give rather clear descriptions 
that is ever found by the Alexandrian grammarians.

> Recently, through learning
> Russian, I'm beginning to appreciate just how much nuance there is in
> actual speech, that is never recorded in the textbooks. If one went
> merely by textbook descriptions and second-hand information, one would
> pronounce Russian very strangely indeed! And were it not for actual,
> living, native speakers, one could be easily deluded to think that one's
> pronunciation is quite accurate. 

:-)

> So now I'm wondering about just how
> much information has been preserved about these ancient tongues, or how
> wildly inaccurate our attempted reconstructions are. :-)

Exactly!

Alas the neither the Greeks nor the Romans were the world's best 
phoneticians. In the case of Latin we do have great deal more 
information (partly because of the different way that the Romancelangs 
have treated certain sounds), but with Greek it would be IMO a very 
foolish person who would claim complete accuracy. I am quite sure that 
our attempted reconstructions would indeed sound very strange to Greeks, 
whether in the Classical period or the Koine (even tho, of course, in 
the Koine there was more regional variation   :)

-- 
Ray
==================================
[log in to unmask]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB}

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June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
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August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
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July 2000, Week 4
July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
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May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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