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CONLANG  October 2006, Week 1

CONLANG October 2006, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Creating conlang grammars using prototypes

From:

"David J. Peterson" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 4 Oct 2006 12:51:33 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (258 lines)

Much of what you wrote is right in line with what I've been
thinking (or, really, since I'm leaving linguistics, the conclusions
I've come to) about language.  Here are some comments:

Teoh:
<<
I've been thinking for a while now about a different way of creating the
grammar of a conlang (or analysing a natlang---but I'll defer that to
the real linguists ;-)) than the usual approach of enumerating a set of
syntactic rules (word order, head/tail marking, clause formation, etc.).
 >>

...and...

<<
Consider how one acquires one's L1.  (L2 learners often go the route of
learning the rules and then memorizing the exceptions, so we'll leave
out L2 acquisition for now.) In learning your L1, you don't start by
first learning where to put the subject and where to put the verb, etc..
I.e., you don't learn the general rules first. Instead, you hear
*specific* sentences spoken by your parents, in specific contexts, and
you imitate what they say *in that context*.  What they say defines what
is the "correct" way for expressing that particular concept, and the
context in which it is said defines how that concept should be expressed
when in that context.
 >>

I'll tell you what the Chomskyan linguists will say to this.  Of
course, they say that children come preprogrammed with ideas
about how language should be structured, word order, etc.,
but we can leave that out (this notion has become so absurd to
me that I can't even entertain it in jest).  Specifically, the notion
that children learn through imitation is dismissed out of hand
as being unscientific--kind of "matter-of-fact" reasoning.  The
actual arguments I've seen against the notion that imitation
plays an important role, however, are rather unimpressive.
For example, one is that children say things they've never heard
before, e.g., "Mommy, I hate you" (this is a classic example).
Of course, they couldn't utter it without hearing the words "Mommy",
"I", "hate" and "you", in some context at some time.  At that
point, if they've heard a sentence like "I X you", I don't find
this novel sentence very surprising.  Another argument is the
fact that they overgeneralize, producing sentences like, "I holded
the rabbit" or "I saw two mans", forms they wouldn't have heard
before (or certainly not from their parents).  Of course, if they've
heard "I X'ed Y" before, and understand it to be past tense, then
I don't see why this isn't imitation (or, more appropriately, analogy).

Anyway, the point is, in most linguistic circles, this kind of idea
and reasoning would be dismissed out of hand--they'd probably
find a little naive.  But, in my opinion, they're wrong.

Regarding rules, there are "rules", but probably not the kind
that've been proposed over the years.  They're merely generalizations
about observed linguistic behavior, and are only as accurate
as the users of the language allow them to be.  So, for example,
you could state a rule like this:

"man" = sg.; "men" = plu.

However you want to formalize it.  This is true iff every speaker
of English does this.  If a small percentage don't, and, say, do
"man/mans", then it's only 98% accurate.  (Note: With children,
I'd say it only holds if they don't grow out of it.)  This specific
rule I'd say is pretty rock-solid in English.  There are plenty that
aren't, though:

"octopus" = sg.; "octopi" = plu.

It's common, no doubt, but there are other ways to do it--even
in the same grammar.  For example, I have this one and "octopuses".
There's probably some rationale I have for using one over the
other, but I'm pretty sure it's context- (and me-) specific.

Now to the prototype idea.  When I said in my talk (or at least
I think I said it in my talk...) at the LCC that the idea I was  
presenting about
morphology could be extended to all theoretical aspects of language,
this is what I meant.  So, there's two plural rules:

X
N
Z sg.

<->

X"es"
N
Z plu.

...and...

X"us"
N
Z sg.

<->

X"i"
N
Z plu.

(The first would have to be slightly more complicated, but this
will serve.)

If you have some word that fits into one of these forms, then,
you can analogize to the other.  The extent to which it will "work"
is the extent to which you and your interlocutors will accept it.
So, for example, a joke that "Mordecai" is what you call more
than one "Mordecus" will only work if that "a" doesn't bother
you (might work better spoken).

Anyway, you can extend this idea quite easily to syntax:

X Y A
NP(non-3sg.) V NP
Z

<->

X Ys A
NP(3sg.) V NP
Z

The machinery would have to be modified a bit, but if instead
of single words you work with phrases, clauses, entire series of
discourse (think about the canonical form of a toast, for example),
you can build up how a child gets from one or two sentences to
a whole series of sentences they haven't heard before, and how
we can understand a sentence like "It's frog-time!" with absolutely
no context.  It's a vague understanding, but we know that whatever
time it is, it's going to have something to do with one or more
frogs, and that these frogs will be important in some way.

Regarding your specific idea about the prototype, I'd say that
just about any sentence could be a prototype--that is, a basis
for analogy.  It's not immediately clear to me how (or if) this
could be constrained, which is why it'd probably be rather
frightening to linguists.  To me, though, it seems that the only
thing that constrains language is the speakers, and physical
constraints (e.g., working memory, the fact that it'd probably
be hard to tell the difference between /nk/ and /Nk/ in word-
final position, etc.), so I think it's a step in the right direction.

Some other comments:

Teoh:
<<
One idea I have is that instead of setting down word order rules,
syntactical rules, NP structure, etc., from the start, begin instead
with a set of prototypical situations (let's call these *contexts*),
such as greetings, farewells, telling time, asking questions, etc., and
coin their prototypical phrases (the *prototypes*).  Then, generalize
these phrases into *templates*, and produce new phrases from them. As
you go along, maybe you will think of a new situation where an existing
template won't quite work; then you create a new context and a new
prototype (phrase), which gives rise to a new template that overrides
the previous in that context (and possibly other contexts as well).
 >>

This would be good, but so hard and time-consuming!  ;)  In truth,
there are a lot of things I know I *should* do when conlanging,
but, well, I only have so much time and patience.  Ahh...laziness...

Teoh:
<<
Furthermore, by *describing* a conlang's grammar in terms of contexts,
prototypes, and their induced templates, it's much easier for someone
else to learn the language (since it parallels how one acquires an L1),
AND pick up the conculture at the same time (by seeing which phrases are
used in which contexts).
 >>

Not for me.  : \  I still like the all the rules.  I can't stand the
TY approach.  There are others like me.  Not everyone, of course,
but a large minority who would really prefer to see tables and
charts.  And you know what?  We probably won't learn the
language that effectively.  So be it!

Really, though, I think this may be because there's a difference
between learning your first language and learning any other
language.  When learning your L1, you have very little to analogize
from.  When you're learning an L2, you have an entire language
to fall back on.  It's really, really hard to tune all that knowledge
out and try to relearn a totally new way of thinking about language.
And humans love to try to formalize rules about language.  This
is why we have sentences that are infinitely long, and authors
like William Faulkner.  If you think about language in terms of
speakers, then an infinitely long sentence could never be produced,
and is, therefore, not a part of the grammar of any language.
This will not, however, stop people from imagining them, and
coming up with sentences like "Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo  
buffalo..."
(I for the life of me can't figure out how this sentence works, but
involves the verb "buffalo", the noun "buffalo" and the place-name
"Buffalo").  It's the difference between participating in the language
and thinking about the language; imagining the logic of the
language, as if it were a foreign entity.

With respect to L2 instruction, though, I have heard (was it on-
list?) that Chinese is taught in a similar way.  Instead of learning
vocabulary, you learn a particular sentence form, use it, replace
words here and there, and then go onto a new sentence form.
Can anyone confirm/deny this?  (And I'm sure there are tons of
ways of teaching Chinese; this was just one I heard.)

Teoh:
<<
One could also use this approach in creating a descendent language:
start with a traditional rules-and-exceptions conlang grammar, come up
with a list of contexts, and see what a mother would teach her child in
those contexts. Then let the child infer her own rules (not necessarily
the same as the rules the mother use) about the language based on what
the mother says. The transfer of knowledge is necessarily imperfect,
which will lead to templates that don't quite fit the original rules,
but commonplace amongst the 2nd generation. This then leads to
(hopefully realistic?) grammatical shifts over time.
 >>

This is another one of those things that came up on-list awhile
back: the idea that language change is driven by child error.
It's certainly true: children do infer what rules they can, and
sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong.  Over time,
though, the rules get refined, so that they pretty much look
like everyone else's.  There are hold-outs, so that, for example,
I pronounce "both" with an /l/, and "-ing" like [in], but if they
really got in the way of comprehension, they'd probably disappear.
I think this idea comes from the Chomskyan notion that children
arrive at their grammar at like age 5, and after that, it doesn't
change, save with some vocabulary, learning a few new idioms,
etc.  This is nonsense.  One's language changes significantly over the
course of one's entire life, the pronunciation, vocabulary,
morphology, syntax, pragmatics--the whole bit.  The pronunciation,
at least, is coming to light, thanks to that study of the Queen's
English (incidentally, anyone have a link to this?).  But even
things like one's understanding of structures one has been using
for years can change, if a speaker encounters a new way of
thinking about them.  With new words come new constructions,
and different ways of thinking about old constructions.  Why
should grammar be immutable?

Teoh:
<<
Finally, to conclude, I'd like to state the caveat that all of the above
are just my ivory-tower ponderings...
 >>

Ditto.  No tomatoes, please!

-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."

-Jim Morrison

http://dedalvs.free.fr/

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October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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