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CONLANG  October 2006, Week 1

CONLANG October 2006, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Creating conlang grammars using prototypes

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:02:53 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (236 lines)

David J. Peterson wrote:
[snip]
> Teoh:
[snip]
> <<
> Consider how one acquires one's L1.  (L2 learners often go the route of
> learning the rules and then memorizing the exceptions, so we'll leave
> out L2 acquisition for now.) In learning your L1, you don't start by
> first learning where to put the subject and where to put the verb, etc..
> I.e., you don't learn the general rules first.

You don't learn the 'rules' in the same way that an adult may learn 
rules from a book, but .....

> Instead, you hear
> *specific* sentences spoken by your parents, in specific contexts, and
> you imitate what they say *in that context*.  What they say defines what
> is the "correct" way for expressing that particular concept, and the
> context in which it is said defines how that concept should be expressed
> when in that context.
>  >>

...and thus come 'unconsciously' to acquire those 'rules'.
[snip]
> 
> Regarding rules, there are "rules", but probably not the kind
> that've been proposed over the years.  They're merely generalizations
> about observed linguistic behavior, and are only as accurate
> as the users of the language allow them to be.  

Exactly! They are not rules in the way that, say, the rules of a club or 
society are rules. In other words, they are not prescriptive. If 
language really did have in-built prescriptive rules there could be no 
developments like Old English to Modern English, Vulgar Latin to the 
various Romance languages etc.

They are _descriptive_ generalizations of observed linguistic behavior. 
They are not fixed & will change (except, of course, in the case of a 
dead language).

> So, for example,
> you could state a rule like this:
> 
> "man" = sg.; "men" = plu.
> 
> However you want to formalize it.  This is true iff every speaker
> of English does this.  If a small percentage don't, and, say, do
> "man/mans", then it's only 98% accurate.  (Note: With children,
> I'd say it only holds if they don't grow out of it.)  

And the fact that young kids do say things like "mans", "writed" etc 
surely shows that L1 learners do acquire the general 'rules' first and 
then have to master the exceptions.

> This specific
> rule I'd say is pretty rock-solid in English.  There are plenty that
> aren't, though:
> 
> "octopus" = sg.; "octopi" = plu.

Ach-y-fi!

> It's common, no doubt, but there are other ways to do it--even
> in the same grammar.  For example, I have this one and "octopuses".

Octopi _ain't_ common this side of the Pond; "octopuses" is what I 
normally hear. "octopi" is just hypercorrection by those with no Latin 
or Greek. That is, such people have actually formed a rule in their own 
minds to the effect that "all 'long words' ending in -us form their 
plurals in -i" (I assume people who say 'octopi' don't all say 'bi' as 
the plural of 'bus'   :)

> There's probably some rationale I have for using one over the
> other, but I'm pretty sure it's context- (and me-) specific.

See above.

[snip]

> Teoh:
> <<
> One idea I have is that instead of setting down word order rules,
> syntactical rules, NP structure, etc., from the start, begin instead
> with a set of prototypical situations (let's call these *contexts*),
> such as greetings, farewells, telling time, asking questions, etc., and
> coin their prototypical phrases (the *prototypes*).  Then, generalize
> these phrases into *templates*, and produce new phrases from them. 
 >>

In fact many language text-books do just that   :)

[snip]
> Teoh:
> <<
> Furthermore, by *describing* a conlang's grammar in terms of contexts,
> prototypes, and their induced templates, it's much easier for someone
> else to learn the language (since it parallels how one acquires an L1),
> AND pick up the conculture at the same time (by seeing which phrases are
> used in which contexts).
>  >>
> 
> Not for me.  : \  I still like the all the rules.  I can't stand the
> TY approach.  There are others like me. 

Some of the TY books do include structured grammar information together 
with the approach Teoh outlined. But I agree, without some grammar to 
explain/formalize what's going on in language, I get lost. I have on my 
shelves a book called "Gaelic without Groans" - the title is a misnomer!

The books purports to teach Gaelic practically without any grammar 
'rules', just by examples, templates etc. I just got completely lost  :=(

I like much in Teoh's approach, but there must, it seems to me, be some 
formulation of 'rules' at some stage
==================================

Gary Shannon wrote:
[snip]
 > This is what I had in mind in my conlang posts of Dec, 2005 and Jan, 
2006:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0512D&L=CONLANG&P=R6289&I=-3

And you will know from my mail of 29th Dec. 2005 & subsequent mails that 
I profoundly disagree with your 'early hominid language' theory.

[snip]
 > What starts out as a simple set of sentence templates
 > becomes elaborated over time to the point where modern
 > children have to internalize thousands of templates in
 > order to go from "Me no see puppy. Puppy go bye-bye?"

? Surely a child only says "Me see no puppy" if s/he has been subjected 
to silly baby-talk by adults. IME very young children refer to 
themselves by name before they move onto using pronouns - and at that 
stage generally use the pronouns correctly. Something like "John not see 
puppy" IME is more likely.

[snip]
 >
 > The earliest childhood templates are those that the
 > earliest proto-humans would most likely have created
 > for themselves, and so ontogeny once again mirrors
 > phylogeny.

Possibly - but IMO childhood speech is not quite as simplistic as it is 
being suggested and we certainly do not understand all that goes on 
during childhood acquisition of one's L1. I have before me a tome of 
some 572 pages on "First Language Acquisition" which suggests to me that 
this is not a simple process.
==================================

H. S. Teoh wrote:
 > On Wed, Oct 04, 2006 at 12:51:33PM -0700, David J. Peterson wrote:
[snip]
 >>
 >>"octopus" = sg.; "octopi" = plu.
 >
 > Eeek! ... mixed ... plurals ... *shudder* It's octopodes, *octopodes*!
 > (I'm sure Greekers will agree with me here. ;-))

Yes, horrible mixed plurals. It's like saying *bananae on the analogy of 
antenna ~ antennae, formula ~ formulae     :)

Yes, the Greek plural was 'octopodes' - tho _octapu:s_ ~ _octapodes_ was 
even better   :)

 > On a more serious note, this illustrates what I said about conforming to
 > the norm (or using the right protocol, if you will). Just about nobody
 > except obsessive Greek scholars would insist on 'octopodes', so it is
 > more efficient to say what others say instead,

True - which is why I say "octopuses" as that what others generally say 
in this neck of the woods.  FWIW, my dictionary gives as plural:
{quote}
*octopuses*, (_arch._) *octopodes* (*octopi* is wrong)
(/quote}

 >even if it's "wrong"
 > according to etymology. And therefore, that makes it "right" in English,
 > since "right" is defined to be what everyone else agrees on, as far as
 > language goes.

Yes, but with this word one would have to note that for many people it 
conforms to the general English plural -(e)s rule; but that some people 
treat it as belonging to the subclass of 'learned words of Latin origin' 
which have singular -us & plural -i, even though etymologically it does 
not belong to that class.
[snip]

 > I'd say the constraints are the prototypes themselves, or at least, the
 > set of accumulated prototypes that a speaker has come to be acquainted
 > with.

But 'rules' are surely just generalizations derived from the prototypes. 
I do not think there is any contradiction here - just two ways of 
approaching the same thing.

 > Given a sufficiently large set of prototypes, many prototypes
 > will be overridden by others in various contexts, and so will no longer
 > be as general.

Rules & exceptions   ;)

[snip]
 >
 > OTOH, if something can already be expressed by an existing pattern,
 > there is some resistance to accepting a new way of saying it. If the
 > majority of the speakers feel that pattern P1 already suffices to
 > express idea I1, and somebody comes along and expresses I1 using a new
 > pattern P2, then P2 sounds unfamiliar and "ungrammatical", and the
 > reaction would be, "P1 is how you'd say this". Eventually, when enough
 > momentum has built behind P1, P2 falls out of use and drops out of the
 > language.

And conversely when sufficient momentum has built up behind P2, it 
supersedes P1 - thus language changes & develops.
[snip]
 >
 > There's nothing wrong with summarizing a set of prototypes using a
 > table.

Quite so - two approaches (see above).




-- 
Ray
==================================
[log in to unmask]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB}

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October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
August 2000, Week 4
August 2000, Week 3
August 2000, Week 2
August 2000, Week 1
July 2000, Week 5
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
September 1999, Week 4
September 1999, Week 3
September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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