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AUXLANG  January 2007, Week 1

AUXLANG January 2007, Week 1

Subject:

Re: O.T. - Brigitte Gabriel's speech about Muslims

From:

Rex May <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 7 Jan 2007 11:16:27 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (96 lines)

On Sun, 7 Jan 2007 12:53:54 +0200, Risto Kupsala <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Rex, my only concern in this topic is your one-eyed xenophobia against
>the Muslims (and the Mexicans, apparently). The Christians and the
>Muslims and the Jews have coexisted peacefully in close contact many
>times in history in many different places. It's also true that there
>have been times when the religions have clashed, but I would say that
>the clashes have had more to do with politics than genuine faith. In
>rough terms religion = faith + politics. Concerning the political side
>Christianity and Islam are currently polarized. But concerning the faith
>side these two religions are quite compatible. They are both homophobic,
>misogynistic, patriarchal, cruel and war mongering but on the other hand
>also peaceful and permissive, depending on what parts of the holy books
>are emphasized.

This is well put.  Most any religion that's been around very long and
that has millions of members can be shown to have been, as you say,
peaceful and warlike, tolerant and intolerant, etc., at different times
and different places.  And you're also right in saying that many of
the religious conflicts in the past and present are better described as
political and/or ethnic conflicts with a religious component of some
sort.  The Ulster conflict is a good example of that.  Far more
ethnic/nationalist than religious, at base, tho the parties are always
designated as Catholic and Protestant.

And in a way I agree that it's ironic that the three Abrahamic religions,
which might look almost identical to an outsider, manage to be
so belligerent towards one another over their relatively small
differences.  But that's the way it is.  Look at the conflict in the
past between Lutheranism and Catholicism — two religions with
miniscule differences.

Indeed, it almost seems that two religions with almost _nothing_
in common are more likely to get along than two closely
related religions.  Confucianism and Jehovah's Witnesses, say.

>
>So in essence my concern is that you and Andrew fail to see the whole
>picture. Religion is not the only thing in this equation, it's just a
>façade that covers the real problems, a scape goat in a sense. Those who
>immigrate are usually in search of a better life. It would be good if
>they could leave the problems of their past life behind, such as
>poverty, low education, religious conservatism and political conflicts,
>just by crossing the border, but you know that it's not realistic to
>expect that. So what you need to do, as a host, is to give the
>immigrants a second chance for a better life. That's what they came
>looking for in the first place. Hospitality not hostility.
>

Fair enough.  But don't mix me up with Andrew.  I have no
animus in particular against Islam or Mexicans or anybody
else.  I simply realize that there is a point where the defects
of "diversity" outweigh the benefits, and I fear that far too
many Americans and Europeans are naive about this.

[FWIW, what I _usually_ get in trouble for in the groups I
frequent is being too pro-Muslim in my attitude towards
the Middle East conflicts.  You can't win.]

Relevant article from the _American Conservative_
http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_01_15/cover.html

[Not, I hasten to point out, a neoconservative publication,
but a genuine conservative old-school magazine in 
opposition to the neocons.  Anyone who wants to
understand American politics has to understand
the distinction, FYI.]

Of course religion is only a part of all this.  Race and 
ethnicity (including language — we're not _completely_
off-topic) are in some instances more important than
religion.  Animus towards Gypsies, for example, has no
religious component as far as I can discern.  OTOH,
animus in the US against Mormons in the 19th 
century was _enitirely_ religion-based, as there were
no other differences between the Mormons and other
US groups.

I repeat:  I have no particular animus against any human
group.  However, I recognize the potential for strife
between groups, and I advotate a prudence in deciding
to put certain groups in close proximity.  Chicken-worshippers
have a hard time living next door to chicken-eaters. 
Unless, of course, they're pretty secular examples of
their respective faiths.

This has been interesting.  I can see your point of
view, and sympathize with it.  I hope you can see
that mine, tho you may disagree with it, is based
on observation of reality and my desire that the
human race organize itself in such a way as to
minimize conflict and find ways to cooperate and
give everybody the best chance for prosperity and
happiness.  Countries refraining from invading
one another would be a good start.

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