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AUXLANG  January 2007, Week 1

AUXLANG January 2007, Week 1

Subject:

Re: language comfort

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 2 Jan 2007 23:31:06 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (113 lines)

Je 11.21 atm 2007.01.02, Dave MacLEOD skribis

>The only IALs that I don't feel comfortable with are Interlingue and 
>Novial, because the fact that their founders died before everything 
>could be ironed out kind of makes me sad.

But, Dave, how long do you expect these people to hang around dotting 
'i's and crossing 't's? Jespersen lived for, what, a decade and a 
half after the original publication of Novial; Wahl lived  for more 
than a quarter of a century after the major (not really original) 
going public of Occidental. I suspect that whatever was going to be 
ironed out by them personally had been ironed out already.

The real tragedy of Novial is that it never developed a user 
community which was capable of taking over husbandry of the language 
from Jespersen. There was such a community for Occidental, for at 
least a time, but for various reasons it too began to disappear 
shortly after Wahl's death (though not necessarily post hoc ergo 
propter hoc; there were other considerations involved, as well, most 
notably the appearance of Interlingua).

Two of the major contributing factors to the relative success of 
Esperanto (and they were closely related) were: (a) Zamenhof's 
insistence on leaving much of the ultimate development of the 
language, or at least its usage in real life, to the user community 
rather than himself insisting on doing the dotting and crossing; and 
(b) Zamenhof's insistence on the creation and firming up of 
institutions to guarantee continuity in the language. While other 
IALs (including Novial and Occidental [*]) attempted to imitate 
Esperanto in at least (b), they don't seem to have been particularly 
successful over the long haul in this regard. Again, I suspect that 
the paucity or complete lack of a user community played a major role here.

---

(*) I think I've posted this before, long ago, but perhaps you'll 
find the following two passages from Tazio Carlevaro's review article 
"Mondlingvaj akademioj" interesting (from the Festschrift for Gaston 
Waringhien "Li kaj ni", Antwerp: TK, 1985, pp. 381-391; translation 
from the original Esperanto is mine, as are all obvious and perhaps 
not so obvious errors of translation).

7. Occidental (Interlingue) Academy

Occidental is a neo-Latinoid language created after long years of 
study by the sometime Volapukist and Esperantist Edgar von Wahl in 
1922. From its beginning it attracted several linguistically 
interested Idists. The first type of "fundamento" [ref. to 
Esperanto's "Fundamento" -DH] of the language appeared in dictionary 
form only in 1925 ("Radicarium directiv in 8 lingue", by E. von 
Wahl). In 1927 the Occidentalists centered leadership of their 
movement in Austria (namely, in Vienna); it was there that the 
central and for a long time only periodical "Cosmoglotta" (earlier: 
"Kosmoglott") appeared, and the central headquarters of the 
international "Occidental-Union" was in that town. An organ of the 
Occidental-Union was the Occidental-Academie, consisting of around 10 
persons. They had the right to decide on changes, additions and 
innovations to the language. But, as a consulting committee, another 
type  of wider organization, by name the Comite' Explorativ del 
Lingue International Auxiliari (CELIA) was created; it discussed 
various linguistic questions, offered a solution or solutions to the 
Academy, which was the only instance with power of decision. The 
discussions and decisions regularly appeared in "Cosmoglotta". The 
Academy had as a purpose to definitively normalize the language 
Occidental. Joseph Ga"r's "Deutsch-Occidental-Worterbuch" (revised by 
von Wahl) was taken as a basis. In 1933, because of the nervous 
international political horizon, it was decided to centralize the 
entire Occidental movement in Switzerland, in the village of 
Chapelle. A Swiss group there began work with Ilmari Federn, an 
immigrant to Switzerland (1937), on a normalized dictionary 
("Vocabularium fundamental", in large part later revised by E. von 
Wahl). The explosion of the second world war forced the 
Occidental-Union, centralized in Switzerland, to dissolve the 
Academy, creating a temporary Academy ("Academie Interimari de 
Occidental"), which consisted of two well-cooperating groups: one in 
Switzerland, and the other in Sweden. This normalization work lasted 
until 1947, when the "Fundamental Vocabularium de Occidental" 
appeared, under the editorship of Ric Berger. At that time the 
temporary academy little by little sank into sleep because of the 
work it had done: even the change of name "Occidental" to today's 
name "Interlingue" (1949) occurred without consultation with the 
academy. Currently, the evaporating Interlingue movement apparently 
has no further need of an academy.

[Carlevaro does not mention the Occidental "Senate" of which William 
Gilbert, author of "Planlingvaj problemoj", was for some time a 
member, possibly because it was not a linguistically oriented body. -DH]

8. Novial Academy

The well-known Danish linguist Jespersen, who had already cooperated 
in the creation of Ido, in 1928 proposed a new neo-Latinoid language 
project Novial ("Nov International Auxiliari Lingue"). In 1929 a 
handful of ex-Idists came over to it ("aligxis al gxi"), along with 
the well known Ido magazine "Mondo". In 1934 Jespersen decided to 
reform the language radically, to bring it closer to Occidental. For 
the event, "Mondo" changed its name to "Novialiste". But it appeared 
that the Novialists were a linguistically very undisciplined group of 
people, and for this reason, and perhaps also because Jespersen did 
not have the time to be occupied very deeply with his project, a 
"Lingual Jurie del Novialistes" was founded (1937) and offered new 
improvements and changes. But this did not decrease the linguistic 
chaos in the tiny movement itself, because the decisions of that 
committee were not mandatory, only suggestive. Novial, together with 
its linguistic committee, disappeared during the second world war.


-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/don/don.html
Opinions (in English): http://www.harlows.org/don/opinions/
Esperanto (in English): http://www.harlows.org/don/esperanto/
Literaturo (Esperante): http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/Literaturo

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February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
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July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
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December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
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September 2000, Week 1
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August 2000, Week 1
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July 2000, Week 1
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June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
May 2000, Week 4
May 2000, Week 3
May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
April 2000, Week 4
April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
November 1998, Week 2
November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
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October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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July 1998, Week 3
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July 1998, Week 1
June 1998, Week 5
June 1998, Week 4
June 1998, Week 3
June 1998, Week 2
June 1998, Week 1
May 1998, Week 5
May 1998, Week 4
May 1998, Week 3
May 1998, Week 2
May 1998, Week 1
April 1998, Week 5
April 1998, Week 4
April 1998, Week 3
April 1998, Week 2
April 1998, Week 1
March 1998, Week 5
March 1998, Week 4
March 1998, Week 3
March 1998, Week 2
March 1998, Week 1
February 1998, Week 5
February 1998, Week 4
February 1998, Week 3
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February 1998, Week 1
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January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
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January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 1
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November 1997, Week 3
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November 1997, Week 1
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May 1997, Week 3
May 1997, Week 2
May 1997, Week 1
April 1997, Week 5
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April 1997, Week 3
April 1997, Week 2
April 1997, Week 1
March 1997, Week 5
March 1997, Week 4
March 1997, Week 3
March 1997, Week 2
March 1997, Week 1
February 1997, Week 5
February 1997, Week 4
February 1997, Week 3
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February 1997, Week 1

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