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AUXLANG  January 2007, Week 1

AUXLANG January 2007, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Interlingue and Interlingua

From:

Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 5 Jan 2007 11:02:47 -0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (175 lines)

On 1/5/07, Steve Rice <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> What I came up with there was
>
> French  elle
> Spanish  ella
> Portuguese  ela
> Italian  ella, essa
> Interlingua  illa
>

Very cool. Thank you. From now on, I'll use "ela". We always have to
be skeptical as you are.

>
> This is where the prototyping business can lead, however: a fairly obvious
> international form is subverted by the system's tendency to "normalize" the
> data, especially in light of Latin. That's also why "illa" turns up: the
> masculine should be el[e]
>
> French  il
> Spanish  Úl
> Portuguese  ele
> Italian  egli, esso
>
> but the system uses the Latin forms elsewhere (particularly as
> demonstratives), so we get ille/-a because the system generally
> distinguishes sex based on the ending. (Why the system isn't illo m., ille
> n., which is normal elsewhere in Ia, I don't know.)
>

I strongly agree with you. To make the system more uniform here, the
masculine should be "elo", the feminine "ela" and the neuter "ele",
otherwise pronouns becomes an exception! Why
elo = neutral, ele = masc, ela = fem
and
isto = neutral, iste = masc, ista = fem,
but
americano = masc, americana = fem,
and
"Iste persona es felice." -> "iste" = neutral,
but
"Iste es un dentista." -> "iste" = masc
and
"Isto es un casa." -> "isto" = neutral
and
"Ele persona es felice." -> "ele" = neutral
but
"Ele es un bon judice." -> "ele" = masc
and
"Elo es mi can" -> "elo" = neutral
? There is something very inconsistent here. In my opinion, a more
suitable scheme would be
elo = masc, ele = neutral, ela = fem
and
isto = masc, iste = neutral, ista = fem,
so "iste" and "ele" would always be neutral, and the terminations "o"
and "a" would consistently cover the characteristic of Romance
languages of often indicating masculine and feminine, respectively. My
suggested pronoun scheme would not hurt the vocabulary extraction
algorithm anymore than the original scheme.

>
> But would the project itself be welcome? It would be like reworking the
> Fundamento. Mulaik has pushed in this direction, and while I agree with
> some of his views, they are generally unpopular.
>

The "Fundamento", metaphorically speaking, is not the original
dictionary per se, but the preface of the dictionary (see
http://www.interlingua.org/html/ied-preface.htm). I would not rework
the preface, which contains the algorithm. To that base, I would only
add the fine-tuning of the algorithm proposed by Mulaik to obtain
particles, which improves the internationality of the result for the
Angloromance world. After all, taking Latin particles which are not
used in any current language and declaring that they are international
and modern words is, to say the least, not serious.
The support of the Interlingua community would be largely appreciated
as an additional factor of motivation. But it would be a personal
project, so any eventual opposition of the community would not block
my project. Anyway, I do not know why people would oppose to an
attempt of reconstructing the rationale for each word added to the
dictionary. This would be good, not bad, as it would be a new resource
for learners.
The piece of software would be useful for more contexts, not just for
the Interlingua community. If you have suggestions of requirements for
such a dictionary+thesaurus, please send me. I would like to satisfy
some of your conlanging needs for a decent electronic dictionary too.

> This leads to another question, which is really a problem only for Ia:
> autonomy. Even Occ actually has considerable autonomy in use, though it is
> pressured to conform to "international" forms. But Ia is the shadow
> (perhaps just A shadow) of Standard Average European: if it takes on a life
> of its own, it ceases to reflect SAE accurately. If it merely mirrors SAE,
> it isn't really a language but a reflection of a (hypothetical) language.
>

I do not see why being the shadow of other languages would make it not
to be a language. If it is used to communicate, it IS a language, no?
What I like in Interlingua is its high degree of passive
recognizability by Angloromance language speakers, and this is the
base for claims of its internationality (do not confuse it with
"globality"). I see it as a very recognizable romance language due to
the internationality of its vocabulary (which causes fantastic
propedeutic effects), and Interlingua is easier to learn than other
Angloromance languages because it is relatively more regular in the
derivation of words (pt: lua, lunar -> ia: luna, lunar; en: rule,
regular -> ia: regula, regular) and the handling of verbs is
relatively simpler (io ama, tu ama, ele ama, nos ama, ...; io amava;
io amara).
So, given that the main objective of Interlingua, in my opinion, is to
serve as an interlanguage for the Angloromance world, I am willing to
sacrifice autonomy to obtain greater passive recognizability. I would
not put a high value in autonomy, as I do not believe Interlingua will
have a great active user base in our lifetime. I would not bother much
with autonomy because anyone is free to use a language the way he
wants, and afford the social consequences of this. If the whole (or
major part of the) Interlingua community wants to use, for instance,
the word "marula" to mean "I", they are free to do it, and nobody
would have the power to forbid them of declaring it was Interlingua.
But I study Interlingua not because I want to join the Interlingua
club (although I enjoy being a member of that community and making
friends there), but because of its intralinguistic properties,
specially its vocabulary obtained by that nice algorithm. I like
learning languages and communicating with foreigners, so Interlingua
makes me learn other Romance languages faster and provides me an
interlanguage to talk to other Romance language speakers that do not
necessarily share a common language with me (I once successfully
communicated with an Italian guy using Interlingua unilaterally, and
it was a nice experience because I unfortunately did not have
opportunity so far of learning Italian fluently).
Other factors that attracted me to Interlingua were that I always
liked those greco-latin roots used in Biology, and I appreciate the
indirect learning of etymology of my native language, Portuguese. For
instance, it was a lot of fun to discover that the name of my aunt,
Regina, means "queen" ("rainha" in Portuguese). And to realize that
the words "pt:rei, en:king" ("rege" in Interlingua) and "pt:reger,
en:to rule" ("reger" in Interlingua) are related improved my knowledge
(metalinguistic awareness) on my own language. Yes, I am a language
geek :).
Off-topic: the Esperanto word "fruktodona", which means "fertile",
rocks! What a beautiful association between concepts and interesting
extension of meaning!

> All this sounds harsh, but I have advocated Interlingua in various forms
> and ways over the years, so I'm not an outsider. (I still think that a
> modestly-reformed Ia or a less-silly version of LFN would be better than Eo
> to pitch to the EU: they would never go for anything that wasn't at-sight-
> guessable.) But my closeness and experience have also shown me some
> paradoxes in Ia, to put it charitably. If you can resolve those, you will
> greatly advance the cause of Interlingua.
>

As you can see, I am not a dogmatic follower of Alexander Gode (IN
GODe WE TRUST? :D ). I like to learn about the criticisms against
Interlingua, and read them with a very open mind. It is true that the
community of Interlingua has, in a sense, multiple personality
disorder. Some want it as a global auxlang (which seemed to be the
original objective of IALA), some want it as an Angloromance auxlang
(the properties of the resulting language seemed to be more aligned to
this), and some want it as a pan-European auxlang (Interlingua is a
kind of "average" European obtained by a relatively more systematic
method, although an "average" biased to Romance languages). The
position of Gode was never very clear in this respect: he called the
Interlingua speakers that had an ideology similar to the mainstream
Esperantist movement "Esperantist", and said this was not the aim of
Interlingua, but wasn't it the aim of IALA? Ironically, Gode seemed
not to bother much with the objectives of the organization that hired
him.
If you know about more paradoxes of Interlingua, particularly about
intralinguistic properties such as vocabulary and grammar, please
expand your comments. This discussion is very interesting. :)

Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues

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December 2000, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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