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CONLANG  January 2007, Week 3

CONLANG January 2007, Week 3

Subject:

Re: YART (Was: Re: Inspirational languages)

From:

"H. S. Teoh" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:03:32 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (136 lines)

On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 12:19:06PM +0200, Isaac Penzev wrote:
> H. S. Teoh wrote:
>
> | Yet Another Russian Thread. :-)
>
> Since I seem to be the only Russian speaker currently active on the
> List, I feel obliged to help.

OK. :-)


> | On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 10:18:27PM +0200, Isaac Penzev wrote:
> | > I'd better give you examples of the correct Russian.
> | >
> | > Я учу химию. - I learn Chemistry (in the secondary school).
> | > Я изучаю химию. - I study Chemistry (at the university).
> |
> | So you'd use a different verb to distinguish between studying secondary
> | school and studying at university? (Well, not really different, but
> | cognate.)
>
> Usually, yes. _Изучать_ generally implies more thorough studies.

OK.


[...]
> | So the verb here is the
> | reflexive form, with a dative for the subject of study. Interesting.
>
> Yes. After thinking a little, I see we may use _учиться_ (_я учусь_) here
> too. They are equivalent.

OK.


> | > Я учу сестру читать. - I teach [my] sister how to read.
> | So accusative case for the person being taught, I guess?
>
> Yes. That is why I used the 1st declension noun for illustrative
> purposes, as they have a distinct for of Accusative.
>
> | > Я учу детей истории. (clumsy, a bit archaic) = Я обучаю детей истории.
> | > - I teach kids history.
> |
> | Interesting. Doesn't обучать mean "to train"?
>
> I don't know all the nuances of the *English* verb "to train", so my
> spontaneous Ru. equivalent to it would be _тренировать_ (back
> translated "to be a coach"). But then I consult the En-En dictionary
> and see I am wrong. That's just a side meaning. We often take
> *glosses* as *equivalents*, while they are not.
> So yes, _обучать_ means "to train".

This usage ("to train kids history") is awkward in English, but I guess
it works in Russian.


[...]
> | Side question: is чтению pronounced ["tSt_jeniju] or ["St_jeniju]?
>
> [ˈʧʲtʲenʲiju] / CXS ["tS;t;en;iju]. Something like an extremely short
> [i] may be heard between [tS;] and [t;]. But neither required nor
> recommended.

I see. Where are the contexts where чт becomes [St]? I know it does in
words like что, and I read somewhere that ч has a tendency of
fricativising in other places as well.


[...]
> | > | Учить can mean both "to teach" and "to learn", the distinction being
> | > | drawn by the case of the nouns: "to teach" having the learner in the
> | > | accusative case and the subject in the dative, whereas "to learn"
> | > | having the subject in the accusative case (and the learner in the
> | > | nominative).
> | >
> | > Верно. См. выше. -- That's true. See above.
> |
> | This seems to work differently for other verbs like преподать, as you
> | have above.
>
> Many RU. verbs are unique wrt "Rection" (prepositional and/or case
> governing).

That's cool. Almost like Ebisédian. :-) I guess there's no real general
rule that can be used for deciding which cases go with which verb, and I
just have to learn them on a case-by-case basis?


> | > This time you are 100% right. But it's better to use the verb
> | > _нравиться_ "like" instead of _любить_ "love": _Мне нравится учить
> | > русский язык._
> |
> | I read about this in my book, that usually Russian would use нрпвится
> | where the English may use "love" instead of "like". I guess любить would
> | be used in occasions such as "I love you", although my book did have a
> | conversation where someone said, Я люблю говорить по-русски. Would this
> | be unusual in real-life?
>
> Sounds a bit odd. _Ljubit;_ is a strong word, y'see...

OK. So мне нравится говорить по-русски is more appropriate? (Did I
phrase that right?)


> To say nothing about slang equivalents to both, for example _Я тащусь
> от хипхопа._ "I go mad about hiphop".

Тащиться? My dictionary glosses it as "to drag oneself along"?
Interesting slang...


[...]
> | Speaking of short adjectives... it seems to me that they are essentially
> | predicative adjectives, is that right? (In the sense that they are
> | adjectives being used as a predicate.)
>
> Exactly so. Plus some archaic idioms that may be used, e.g., ironicly,
> for example _красна девица_ "a fair maid".
[...]

Literally "red maiden"? Funny.

Do all adjectives have a separate short (predicative) form? I almost
thought хороший was an exception, but then I looked it up and find its
predicative forms as хорош, хороша, хорошо. Do all neuter short forms
coincide with the adverbial form?


T

--
One who has not yet appreciated the beauty of language is not worthy to
bemoan its flaws.

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