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CONLANG  January 2007, Week 3

CONLANG January 2007, Week 3

Subject:

Re: YARPT (Was: Re: YAEPT: STRUT (was: RFC: Renaming 3B to Tezenki))

From:

"H. S. Teoh" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 20 Jan 2007 10:06:06 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (173 lines)

(Merging replies from both YAR*T threads.)

On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 11:40:28AM +0200, Isaac Penzev wrote:
> H. S. Teoh pishet:
> 
> | On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 12:44:41PM +0200, Isaac Penzev wrote:
> | I see. What about compound words: does unstressed /o/ consistently
> | reduce to [@] or [V] in compounds, or is [o] retained in some contexts?
> | E.g. домостроение: is it [d@m@strV"jEn_jij@] or [dom@strV"jEn_jij@]?
> | (I'm assuming that since домо- is derived from дом it would be stressed
> | on the first syllable.)
> 
> Hmm. Never though about the theory behind that. But in practice,
> compound words usually have secondary stress. So, _домостроение_ would
> be [,dom@strV"jen;ije].

Ah, that's good to know. I didn't want to sound like an idiot reducing
vowels where I shouldn't. :-)


> Note also, that _оо_ cluster is pronounced as [@V]: _кооперация_
> [k@Vp;i"ratsi\jV], _воображение_ [v@VbrV"Zen;ije].

I see. I've heard final /a/ and initial reduced /o/ merge into a single
vowel, though. I'm not sure if my hearing is accurate, but phrases like
на обучений sound like [na:bu"tS_jenij].


> | > Let me consult the manual. Hmm. Strange. It is not stated explicitly.
> | > But from the transcription examples we can see that indeed, -ят is
> | > [;@t] and -ит is [;it].
> | [...]
> |
> | OK, that makes more sense. :-) What about -ятся and -яться? Are they
> | [j@tsj@] and [j@t_jsj@], or are they [jitsj@] and [jit_jsj@]?
> 
> Final clusters _тся_ and _ться_ should be both pronounced as [ts):V],
> that is as if they were *_цца_. The preceding vowel is read as in
> non-reflexive forms.

Ah, OK.


> I would recommend to study basic principles, and then do the "fine
> tuning" of your accent by imitating a native speaker.
[...]

Good idea. I need much work on conversational skills though... since
almost none of my acquiantances are native Russian speakers, my study
has been mostly limited to reading and listening to Russian radio
stations. I can understand about 20-30% of what I read, but listening to
speech is hard for me, maybe only about 5% comprehension. :-/


On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 12:16:22PM +0200, Isaac Penzev wrote:
> H. S. Teoh wrote:
> 
> | On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 12:19:06PM +0200, Isaac Penzev wrote:
> | > I don't know all the nuances of the *English* verb "to train", so my
> | > spontaneous Ru. equivalent to it would be _тренировать_ (back
> | > translated "to be a coach"). But then I consult the En-En dictionary
> | > and see I am wrong.  That's just a side meaning. We often take
> | > *glosses* as *equivalents*, while they are not.
> | > So yes, _обучать_ means "to train".
> |
> | This usage ("to train kids history") is awkward in English, but I guess
> | it works in Russian.
> 
> Well, if "to train" means "to teach *both* theory and practice", then
> the RU. and the EN. semantic fields have too little overlap, but,
> anyway, that is USAGE.

Well, in English, "to train" usually refers more to a rigorous program
of either physical training or hands-on practicum, rather than a
classroom setting. You wouldn't say that your professor at university
"trains" you, but you would say that of a basketball coach, or a work
(or some other) related program where you are trained to do a specific
task (usually referred to as "job training"). E.g., if you enlist in the
army, you would be "trained" to be a soldier---one wouldn't use "study"
in that context.


> | I see. Where are the contexts where чт becomes [St]? I know it does in
> | words like что, and I read somewhere that ч has a tendency of
> | fricativising in other places as well.
> 
> AFAIK, _что_ is the only example of [tS;t] > [St], but [tS;n] often >
> [Sn]: _яичница_ [i"iSn;itsV] "fried eggs" _конечно_ [kV"n;eSnV] "of
> course". These cases should be learnt as exceptions.

OK.


> | > Many RU. verbs are unique wrt "Rection" (prepositional and/or case
> | > governing).
> |
> | That's cool. Almost like Ebisédian. :-) I guess there's no real general
> | rule that can be used for deciding which cases go with which verb, and I
> | just have to learn them on a case-by-case basis?
> 
> Abso-#$%!-lutely. When you stock enough vocabulary, you may figure out
> certain regularities, but in general, yes, rection should be learnt by
> heart. It may differ even for related words or synonyms, like
> _благодарю тебя_ "I thank you" (Acc.) but _я благодарен тебе_ "I am
> thankful to you" (Dat.).

My personal approach is to read a lot of native text, and acquire a sort
of "gut feeling" from seeing many instances of actual usage. Memorizing
isolated rules from a grammar text doesn't quite cut it for me.


> Btw, in Ukrainian both demands Dat.

How different is Ukrainian from Russian? Or Czech, for that matter. (I
got particularly interested in Czech when I stumbled upon some Czech
text in, of all places, a computer puzzle game, and even though it is
written in Latin alphabet, several words immediately strike me as being
cognate with Russian, such as _posledni_ -> последний, _v_ as a
preposition, etc..)


[...]
> | > To say nothing about slang equivalents to both, for example _Я тащусь
> | > от хипхопа._ "I go mad about hiphop".
> |
> | Тащиться? My dictionary glosses it as "to drag oneself along"?
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> | Interesting slang...
> 
> I can teach you some more! (when we both have time)

Sure. :-) I'm more worried about getting basic conversational skills
down first, though. Currently I'm at the point where I can sort of
figure out what someone is saying if they would only write it down, but
I've a hard time picking out words from listening to actual speech.


> | > Exactly so. Plus some archaic idioms that may be used, e.g., ironicly,
> | > for example _красна девица_ "a fair maid".
> |
> | Literally "red maiden"? Funny.
> 
> No. Old Russian _красный_ means "beautiful", cf. _Красная площадь_
> that is literally "the Beautiful square", not "the Red square", as we
> see in the traditional translation. "Red" was _червленый_ (from
> _червь_ "worm", like Portuguese _vermelho_) - still used in Ukrainian
> (червоний).

So how did красный come to mean "red"? Talk about semantic shift...
Seems almost Chinese in equating "red" with "beautiful". :-)


> | Do all adjectives have a separate short (predicative) form? I almost
> | thought хороший was an exception, but then I looked it up and find its
> | predicative forms as хорош, хороша, хорошо. Do all neuter short forms
> | coincide with the adverbial form?
> 
> AFAIK yes for both questions. _Хороша была Татьяна, краше не было в
> селе..._ True only for the "qualitative" adjectives, of course.
> "Relative" adjectives like _городской_, _каменный_ have no predicative
> forms.
[...]

I see.


T

-- 
Bare foot: (n.) A device for locating thumb tacks on the floor.

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May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
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May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
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March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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December 2005, Week 5
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November 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 1
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 1
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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