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CONLANG  January 2007, Week 3

CONLANG January 2007, Week 3

Subject:

YART (Was: Re: Inspirational languages)

From:

"H. S. Teoh" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 15 Jan 2007 20:19:05 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (127 lines)

Yet Another Russian Thread. :-)

On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 10:18:27PM +0200, Isaac Penzev wrote:
> H. S. Teoh wrote:
> 
> 
> | On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 11:18:05AM +0100, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> | > H. S. Teoh skrev:
> | > >Я люблю учить русски.
> | > Shouldn't that be _uchit'sja_? (_j_ /j/ != _y_ /i\/ :-)
> |
> | Well, according to my textbook, учить is used for elementary and
> | secondary education, or to adult aquisition of a specific skill, whereas
> | учиться generally refers to higher education, or to mean "to study"
> | without reference to the subject of study.
> 
> I think something is wrong with this explanation, but I cannot
> understand what.
> I'd better give you examples of the correct Russian.
> 
> Я учу химию. - I learn Chemistry (in the secondary school).
> Я изучаю химию. - I study Chemistry (at the university).

So you'd use a different verb to distinguish between studying secondary
school and studying at university? (Well, not really different, but
cognate.)


> Я учусь в школе. - I go to school.
> Я учусь в университете. - I study at the university.

In other words, "to study" without reference to subject of study?


> Я обучаюсь сапожному ремеслу. - I learn shoe mender's trade.

Сапожному ремеслу is dative case, right? So the verb here is the
reflexive form, with a dative for the subject of study. Interesting.


> Я учу сестру читать. - I teach [my] sister how to read.

So accusative case for the person being taught, I guess?


> Я учу детей истории. (clumsy, a bit archaic) = Я обучаю детей истории.
> - I teach kids history.

Interesting. Doesn't обучать mean "to train"?


> Я учу их чтению. (ditto) = Я обучаю их чтению. - I teach them reading.

So again, accusative for people being taught, dative for the subject, it
seems.

Side question: is чтению pronounced ["tSt_jeniju] or ["St_jeniju]?


> Я учусь читать по-русски. - I learn how to read Russian.

Interesting. So when an infinitive is used, учить is "active" ("to
teach") and учиться is "passive" ("to learn").


> Я преподаю химию студентам первого курса. - I teach Chemistry to the
> freshers.

Hmm. Here the accusative is used for the subject being taught, and
dative for the students. Interesting.


> Я преподаю историю ученикам пятого класса. = Я читаю историю в пятом
> классе. - I teach History to the 5th Form pupils.

Ditto.


> | Учить can mean both "to teach" and "to learn", the distinction being
> | drawn by the case of the nouns: "to teach" having the learner in the
> | accusative case and the subject in the dative, whereas "to learn"
> | having the subject in the accusative case (and the learner in the
> | nominative).
> 
> Верно. См. выше. -- That's true. See above.

This seems to work differently for other verbs like преподать, as you
have above.


> | Having said all this, though, I did make a mistake: the spelling русски
> | is only valid following the prefix по- (e.g., to speak *in Russian*).
> | The correct phrase should be: Я люблю учить русский язык.  Well, I hope
> | that's the right expression. :-) Yitzik, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> This time you are 100% right. But it's better to use the verb
> _нравиться_ "like" instead of _любить_ "love": _Мне нравится учить
> русский язык._

I read about this in my book, that usually Russian would use нрпвится
where the English may use "love" instead of "like". I guess любить would
be used in occasions such as "I love you", although my book did have a
conversation where someone said, Я люблю говорить по-русски. Would this
be unusual in real-life?


> ===========================
> Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> 
> |  > Having said all this, though, I did make a mistake: the
> |  > spelling русски is only valid following the prefix
> |  > по- (e.g., to speak *in Russian*).
> |
> | Whotsit coming from I wonder? The old locative of a short
> | adjective perhaps?
[...]

Speaking of short adjectives... it seems to me that they are essentially
predicative adjectives, is that right? (In the sense that they are
adjectives being used as a predicate.)


T

-- 
ASCII stupid question, getty stupid ANSI.

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