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CONLANG  January 2007, Week 3

CONLANG January 2007, Week 3

Subject:

Re: "Proposed IPA" characters not in Unicode

From:

Paul Bennett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:04:24 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (119 lines)

----- Original Message -----
From: Benct Philip Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>

> Here be Unicode!

FWIW, my webmail client renders all non-Latin-1 characters as "?", 
which is so braindamaged that it 
hurts -- then again, see also the myriad other ways it's equally 
broken (for example, the double-
wrapping of line ends).

> Paul Bennett skrev:
> > I have a chart of what I think is the latest IPA
> 
> Would you mind showing us that document? (I.e. link to it
> -- if you have it on paper, can you scan it? If you lack
> a webspace to put it you can email it to me and I'll
> upload it.

I *think* I got it from Wikipedia, though there's a small chance it 
came from the IPA official site.

I don't have it with me, but I'll host it tonight. I'd actually be 
interested in discovering the font 
it uses. It's a pretty standard though attractve Roman, and the small 
pieces of italic have a slight 
whiff of Zapf Chancery about them -- it works surprisingly well.

> > (it includes the labiovelar flap (which is not yet in
> > CXS, and about which bloody battles have IIRC been
> > fought)). It contains a number of "proposed" characters,
> > some of which I'm familiar with and which are in Unicode
> > (such as the qp and db labiovelar stop symbols), and some
> > of which fall into the "easy to read, but apparently not
> > well- known" camp.
> 
> Does it by any chance include Chao's proposed letters for
> alveopalatal sounds: ? ? ? ? \u0221 \u0234 \u0235
> \u0236? My conlang Kijeb has a phonetic distinction
> between plain palatals, including [J] and alveopalatals
> including '[n\]'

(I typoed labiodental flap, btw)

It does not, but they're in Code2000, and possibly others, in their 
Unicode places. Code2000 is a bit 
ugly, but it's better than some.

> (My idea for how to represent these in CXS is d\ l\ n\ t\
> analogous to s\ z\, but unfortunately l\ is already in use
> for ? the alveolar lateral flap. 

Not in CXS, as far as I can see. Taking this into account, I'm temped 
to suggest /4_l/ and /4`_l/ for 
the alveolar and retroflex versions (since I hate /r`/ instinctively).

> My preferred solution
> would be to reassign l\ to the alveopalatal lateral and use
> the hitherto unused 4\ for the lateral flap -- too bad L\ is
> taken too! :-/)

Yeah. CXS is organic, which is a huge strength, but it makes it hard 
to systematize it.

It is worth posting an RFC for the formation of a CXS2.0 committee or 
something?

> > For example, there are "belted" versions of /l\/, /L/, and
> > /L\/, symbolizing lateral fricatives. Also, the long-leg
> > /r\/ is back (for the sound I might CXSify as /4_l/), and
> > brings with it a long-leg /r\/ with retroflex hook (the
> > retroflex equivalent, i.e. /4`_l/).
> 
> Something seems to be off with your CXS

Yes. I have /l\/ for /l`/ and the rest of the confusion flows from 
there. I explained it bit better to 
John Vertical. Sorry. I'm prone to typoes lately.

I'll reply to the Unicode-containing stuff from home.

> > So, my questions are:
> >
> > Should I just ignore them unless and until I need to
> > use them?
> 
> You mean if you should create a font for them?

That's an option, for sure. The Freemono/Freesans/etc family is GPL or 
FDL or something, right? Do I 
recall the new-incarnation SIL family being Open Source, too? 

I could dump them in the Private Use Area in the BMP for now...

> > If not, how should I best represent them in typeset text?
> 
> I'd those workarounds we've mentioned (mainly _l = ? =
> \u02e1 after the appropriate tap/flap/fricative character,
> since it can hardly be misunderstood.

Sounds a bit more sensible.

> > Would it take official IPA homologation before the
> > characters make it into Unicode,
> 
> Probably.
> 
> > or are they likely to slip in as part of one of the
> > Phonetic Extension blocks?
> 
> I'd expect them to end up in some new IPA Extensions A
> block.

Me too.



Paul

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