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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  February 2007, Week 1

CONLANG February 2007, Week 1

Subject:

Re: POR PAUPERE and PAVORE in Rhodrese

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 2 Feb 2007 19:28:38 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (82 lines)

Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> Cher compen e compÝ,
>
> I have some problems with the reflexes of *POR 'for, by'
> PAUPERE 'poor' and PAVORE 'fear' in Rhodrese. The regular

[snip]

> PAUPERE will have to stay _paur_,

OK

[snip]
>
> The obvious solution for *POR is to use the unstressed form,

It certainly is. If the French preposition had developed from a stressed
*POR, then we would have _peur_ in modern French, i.e. it would be
homophonous with _peur_ <-- pauore(m) "fear"!

But French _pour_ is the regular development from unstressed *POR. In
any case, prepositions are normally unstressed, aren't they?

> although I don't like _por_. I'm not quite sure why I
> dislike it, just a vague feeling that many expressions get
> more similar to Castilian than what fits Rhodrese. I'm
> actually leaning towards _par_ like in French,

_par_ is *not* the French derivative from *POR; it is _pour_, see above.
_par_ is derived from Latin (both Classical and Vulgar) PER, where /E/
became /a/ under the influence of the following /r/ - cf _marchÚ <--
mercatu(m).

>
> As for PAVORE I found an Italian _spavento_, but I'm not
> entirely happy with _((d)es)pavent_ or _((d)es)pavence_ --
> Italian has a verb _paventare_ too. Italian and French have
> transformed the word into a feminine _paura, paure_,

Italian, yes - but the last time I looked (a few seconds ago), the
French was still _peur_ (with _no_ final -e). But it is feminine; but so
are _all_ abstracts in -eur derived from Latin -ore(m). The change seems
to have happened in the VL of Gaul, thus pre-dating French. It is
thought the the gender change was simply because most other types of
abstract nouns were feminine, so the -ore(m) abstracts just joined them.

The Italian form, however, is anomalous.

[snip]
> What do ye all think? I *know* that real languages don't
> take measures to avoid mergers, but only clear up the mess
> afterwards, so what may come in to replace one or more of
> these forms once they have merged?

The 4th decl. Latin _metus_ /me:tus/ "fear" (VL *meto) survived in the
Iberian peninsular, where we have Spanish _miedo_ and Portuguese _medo_.
  Is this possible for Rhodrese?

> TIMORE > _temaur_, obviously, or FORMIDINE >
> _fromidre/formilne_ -- I like _fromidre_ although according
> to Meyer-LŘbke Old Spanish _formiguero_ 'fearful' is the
> only attested reflex in actual Romance.

I think M-L is probably correct.

> IEIUNU > _jaij˙/jaijune/jaijÚ˙_, IMPROBUS > _empre_? I like
> _paur zaul_ for 'poor devil' however! Perhaps this item is
> preserved because it could also be *POR DIABULU?
> Drat, stressed *POR ain't likely at all, really! ;-(

No, it ain't - see above.

--
Ray
==================================
[log in to unmask]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB}

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